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Upon reading the opening paragraph in an article on the arrest of Nathaniel Kibby in Gorham New Hampshire, I had a gut feeling that the story was about the latest right wing nut job who has finally taken his radical views of societal norms beyond acceptable bounds. Here is that paragraph:

CONCORD, N.H. (AP) — The man charged with kidnapping a teenager nine months ago is very bright, has strong opinions and thrives on conflict, according to a police officer who had two decades of contact with him.
Just a little research confirmed my initial take on Kibby's political views and related legal problems. Kibby has a long history of various criminal offenses, like being charged with providing false information to obtain an "Ak 47 type weapon" according to the police report.

Following a recent indictment for assault and trespassing the court ruled that Kibby should not have access to firearms as a condition for bail:

Kibby later protested the bail conditions in a court filing, saying his firearms were “of immense equitable value” and that he was not a threat because he lived by an “objectivist libertarian moral code.”
Where are the NRA lawyers when you need them?

Objectivist moral code? That is straight out of the Ayn Rand playbook. Kibby's "objectivist libertarian moral code" which does not represent a threat to society evidently does not include an objection to kidnapping 14 year old girls and holding them captive for over 9 months.

On Oct. 9, 2013, 14 year old Abigail Hernandez disappeared while walking home from school. She returned home on July 20, 2014. Investigators are not giving many details about the circumstances of Hernandez' disappearance or her captivity. But we do know the person who is under arrest for kidnapping Hernandez... the objectivist libertarian moral code upholder, Nathaniel Kibby.

Hernandez recently visited the offices of the Conway Daily Sun and thanked the staff for their support during her captivity. The paper ran a box every day listing the number of days Hernandez was missing. She saw the updates on occasion and it gave her hope that she had not been forgotten.

More on Kibby is below the orange turd, and cross posted at ATD.

It is particularly ironic that Kibby's protest of the bail arrangement that he not be allowed access to firearms, in which he stated that he was not a threat to society because of his objective libertarian morality, was filed even as he was holding Hernandez in captivity. Any Randian libertarian worth a bucket of spit should recognize that Kibby was just doing what he wanted to, which is the objectively correct thing to do. If the Hernandez family did not want their daughter to be kidnapped they should have hired armed guards to escort her to and from school.

Acquaintances describe Kibby (aka crazy Nate in the neighborhood he lived in) as a loner who complained about the government and owned guns. A former classmate says that Kibby bullied him for years and it took decades to recover from the "torture".

One example of Kibby's libertarian point of view was on full display when he was ticketed for running a red light. Chris Perley, the officer who wrote the ticket observed:

"He thought he should be entitled to (run the light) because he went to work at such early hours," Perley said.

"He was smart, but he was also brutally myopic in whatever view he had," Perley said. "You could not shake him or redirect him in the way he saw the world."

All of this led me to wonder if Kibby was so rabidly antigovernment when a Republican was president. That is very hard to research, but there is this gem that does provide some vital clues: A letter to the editor of the Conway Daily Sun written by Nathaniel Kibby on Oct. 6, 2004.
To the editor:In response to Mr. Epstein's Sept. 22 column, I feel Mr. Epstein made a grotesque assessment in his reference to the lady arrested at First Lady Laura Bush's speech in New Jersey. The lady in question was not arrested for wearing an anti-Bush T-shirt at a Bush rally, as Mr. Epstein falsely asserts; she was arrested for disorderly conduct (a misdemeanor) for her outrageous behavior at that rally.Mr. Epstein is also wrong in his reference to the president forcing people to sign an oath of loyalty at his rallies to support him. Individuals like myself choose to sign messages of support and wish many blessings on our commander-in-chief. If Mr. Epstein is looking for an impending "Big Brother," look no further than John Kerry and John Edwards. Mr. Epstein has freedom of speech under the First Amendment, but that right comes with inclusive responsibilities, such as telling the truth. But then, Mr. Epstein is the authority on editorial ethics.

Nathaniel Kibby
North Conway

We could relitigate the 2004 election with the loyalty oaths and so on, but what is the point of that? No amount of proof would ever serve to dissuade Kibby or those who agree with him from that opinion. The part of that letter that relates to antigovernment feelings is how Kibby was happy to sign messages supporting the administration of George W. Bush, and expressly describes a potential Kerry/Edwards administration as an impending "Big Brother".

Again, there is no point in litigating the history of the Bush administration or the 2004 campaign, but this is ample proof, from my perspective, that Kibby's opinion on the evils, or the goodness of big government is entirely dependent on the party affiliation of the president.

Finally, I wonder if we may see a novel defense in the Kibby kidnapping case. I have absolutely no evidence that the following scenario is being contemplated by the defense, and it is a bit of fanciful speculation, but considering the case this may well be the best defense that can be offered (short of a plea to get a shorter sentence).

Imagine the defense pleading incapcity, due to ideological indoctrination. The previous encounters with law enforcement show Kibby was not able to be swayed in his point of view, even on such basic matters as the legality of running a red light. He filed a brief with the court citing his objective libertarian moral point of view as proof that he would not endanger society as a reason he should be allowed access to firearms, even as he held Hernandez captive.

Kibby has demonstrated a long and ongoing history of disregard for legal standards and seems to hold that outlook from a steadfast libertarian political outlook, which outlook could not be shaken by normal means.   Maybe the defense can introduce some choice selections of the teaching of Ayn Rand like: “My happiness is not the means to any end. It is the end. It is its own goal. It is its own purpose.”

This defense would be novel, but they would argue that Kibby does not need to go to jail. He needs to be reformed. They would say Kibby should be institutionalized but not in a prison... but in a place that can treat him for his ingrained Randian point of view that he has let manifest in his life to the  obvious detriment of society.

Just to be clear, I do not endorse such a defense, but shy of copping to a lesser charge for a shorter sentence, if Kibby wants to take this to the jury, what better defense could there possibly be?

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Comment Preferences

  •  erm... cross posted at ATD that is... (12+ / 0-)

    I am the neo-con nightmare, I am a liberal with the facts.

    by bhfrik on Sun Aug 03, 2014 at 10:15:21 PM PDT

  •  If Kibby is institutionalized instead of jailed... (18+ / 0-)

    ...he may never get out.

    Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

    by JeffW on Sun Aug 03, 2014 at 10:17:52 PM PDT

    •  What, are you trying to change my mind Jeffw? (13+ / 0-)

      Never getting out seems better for society than Kibby spending a few years in prison and then being let loose with all the criminal knowledge he will have gained to that point...  Maybe we should hope he is institutionalized and reformed.

      I am the neo-con nightmare, I am a liberal with the facts.

      by bhfrik on Sun Aug 03, 2014 at 10:21:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It sounds like he has a personality disorder... (23+ / 0-)

        ...and if I remember my college psyc classes correctly, those cannot be treated. Of course, if he is jailed, he could end up on the wrong end of a jailhouse shank, too, with his attitude.

        Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

        by JeffW on Sun Aug 03, 2014 at 10:27:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, sexual predators are not tolerated.. (17+ / 0-)

          They are usually isolated. Which makes their disorder worse.

          He clearly shows symptoms associated with personality disorders. A professional diagnosis will probably be ordered. I doubt he'll qualify for a legal insanity defense.

          Many personality disorders are treatable. Even if he is diagnosed with some variety of schizotypal personality disorder, it's still treatable.

          The sexual predator behavior is almost always permanent and untreatable.

          He's a danger to society if he is the guy who kidnapped this young girl. The FBI has been doing a lot of interviews and has collected lots and lots of physical evidence, it seems. This is probably going to result in a solid conviction.

          This whole thing is just so very creepy...  

          "Never wrestle with a pig: you get dirty and the pig enjoys it"

          by GrumpyOldGeek on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 12:55:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  i realize they don't have a lot of facts yet (7+ / 0-)

            but i'm really wondering HOW she...showed up again.

            did she escape?  did he let her go?  if so, why?

            following the woman to her house (after a minor traffic accident) to take pictures of her vehicle and confront her could be Borderline PD.  but releasing the girl, if he did, doesn't seem to fit that diagnosis.

            anyway, he seems to know right from wrong.  even if his "right" and "wrong" are messed up, isn't it that you have to not understand the difference in order to have an insanity defense?

            •  up to a point. (6+ / 0-)

              Someone may be sufficiently deranged that they view killing specific people as right and letting them live as wrong.  They may be completely convinced of that, and thereby classified as delusional.  

              Whether that's sufficient to meet the legal test for insanity and get them off the hook for murder, I have no idea, but perhaps there are lawyers here who can speak to that.

              However it's also true that insanity defenses are rarely successful, even with defendants who are diagnosed as having various types of psychiatric disorders, or shown to have fairly serious cognitive impairment (low IQ).  

              We got the future back. Uh-oh.

              by G2geek on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 06:50:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  narcissistic personality disorder. (17+ / 0-)

            Schizotypal includes the characteristic of anxiety in social situations.  This guy has no trouble telling a cop he's entitled to run red lights.  That says excessive self-confidence rather than anxiety.

            Narcissistic personality disorder seems to fit to a T, and it's pandemic in the culture:

            Symptoms of this disorder, as defined by the DSM-IV-TR, include:[1]

                Expects to be recognized as superior and special, without superior accomplishments
                Expects constant attention, admiration and positive reinforcement from others
                Envies others and believes others envy him/her
                Is preoccupied with thoughts and fantasies of great success, enormous attractiveness, power, intelligence
                Lacks the ability to empathize with the feelings or desires of others
                Is arrogant in attitudes and behavior
                Has expectations of special treatment that are unrealistic


            We got the future back. Uh-oh.

            by G2geek on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 03:10:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sounds like the entire teapublikkkan party nt (16+ / 0-)

              I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

              by a2nite on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 04:53:13 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  A point I've been making for a while (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                It was always present in the Republican Party, what with being the vanguard of the entitled rich, but the Tea Party transformed malignant narcissism from a trait of the party to its raison d'etre.

                This presents a serious problem for us as a nation because political ideology is ill-suited to serve as a mode of psychotherapy. No rational argument, no matter how well crafted, is going to persuade someone like, say, Michelle Bachmann because she's not misinformed or mistaken, she's full-on delusional, as are many of her supporters.

                Blaming Ayn Rand misses the point. Rand didn't invent narcissistic personality disorder, she just provided a focal point for it in a world that already had plenty of focal points. Without Atlas Shrugged, there's still Mein Kampf and The Turner Diaries, and there are enough highly articulate assholes in the world to crank out new narcissistic, violent "philosophies" if the current crop were all pulped and converted into fast food bags.

                We can also talk about better treatment of mental illness, but the simple fact is that a large proportion of the human race -- unsurprisingly about the same percentage that were pro-Bush dead-enders and who fill the ranks of the Tea Party, or the KKK, the CCC, and the John Birch Society before them -- suffers from varying degrees of antisocial personality disorders. They are always available when a Hitler or Mussolini comes along. So far, we've been tremendously lucky: we got Sarah Palin and the neocons instead of the more competent sociopaths who plagued western civilization in the mid-20th century.

                I wouldn't count on that luck holding out forever. We'd have been really screwed if Bush and Cheney hadn't botched the wars. Not all shitheads are fuckups, and having the kind of power the US has gives even marginal fuckups a dangerously large margin of error. The Tea Party will fade like the Klan did, but until we figure out how to structure our society and our politics so that the permanent fringe stays on the fringe, we'll be forever fighting rear-guard actions against the crazies instead of building a better life for ourselves and our children.

                I wish I had anything remotely approaching a solution to the problem to suggest. The only thing I'm sure about is that if we don't solve it, it will dissolve us.

                And the bright side of the downward thermodynamic spiral is, um...

                by eodell on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 09:26:55 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  i thought the latest DSM (9+ / 0-)

              finally folded Narcissistic PD into the Borderline PD definition?

              i really thought i'd heard that a few years ago.  because...nah.

              anyway, narcissism is very, very much a part of being Borderline.  that and the need to control/dominate/reassert himself over the woman with the minor traffic accident.  that's completely Borderline to actually follow her home to be able to confront her.  Borderlines will never, ever let go of a perceived slight.  not sure how a Narcissist is with that.

              BUT....Borderlines are absolutely terrified of being "abandoned."  which is why i wonder about how the girl showed back up.  if he were Borderline, he'd never release her.  i suppose if he were Narcissist, he might have decided that she was simply not worth his time any more?

              •  i don't agree with combining them. (13+ / 0-)

                Narcissism is a very distinct syndrome.  This I know from having known a few and only figured them out years later.  I've also known a couple of sociopaths, and at least one borderline that I can be sure of.  All of them were substantially different, and all of them were highly destructive in different ways.  

                What put narcissism on my radar was the hypothesis of a close friend that it is pandemic in our culture.  At first I was skeptical, but over time it appeared that he was right about that.  

                Word to the wise: don't get involved with narcissists, sociopaths, or borderlines, in any capacity whatsoever.  Much trouble and misery will result, with near 100% certainty.  

                Compared to the pandemic of personality disorders, the current national obsession with autism and spectrum is frankly f---ing absurd.  The risks & dangers associated with autism spectrum disorders pales into insignificance compared to personality disorders.  

                Newt Gingrich is a classic narcissist, and arguably Sarah Palin is as well, and I would add Ralph Nader to that list (running for Pres w/ no prior history of elected office).  Jamie Dimon and Bernie Madoff are classic sociopaths.  The damage these people have done and can do is enormous.

                We got the future back. Uh-oh.

                by G2geek on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 05:39:45 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Hear, hear. Just f***ing heed this advice... (0+ / 0-)
                  Word to the wise: don't get involved with narcissists, sociopaths, or borderlines, in any capacity whatsoever.  Much trouble and misery will result, with near 100% certainty.
                  Don't waste time trying to decide whether you think this advice is wise, appropriate, necessary, or that you somehow know better and can deal with these types.

                  You will only experience more trouble and misery. I think that's 100% for certain. The misery is a consequence of your involvement with these types. And you might have a personality disorder yourself which, almost by definition, you must deny. And you will continue to live a miserable life.

                  The problem is that most people don't know a healthy personality from a unhealthy personality from a tree stump. And they believe their personality and behaviors are just peachy keen normal, thank you very much.

                  The fact is that most people exhibit behaviors and hold beliefs that are symptomatic of various personality disorders to some degree. And 80% or drivers insist that they're better than average drivers. And they're just a social butterfly who enjoys a cocktail now and then and not an alcoholic. Everyone else knows otherwise.

                  Sure, Sarah Who?™ is the poster child for NPD. Add Michele Bachmann to that list, but with more crazy. Diagnosis is an art.

                  NPD is almost impossible to treat. Their belief system if fucked up. Like this: Narcissists don't have personality disorders. Only a crazy person would say that.

                  It's easy to focus on autism and spectrum. The symptoms are often quite evident. The symptoms of personality disorders are usually hidden behind other layers of bullshit behaviors and distractions.

                  A successful con artist is has mastered the art of distraction. The bullshit is believable as a result. Harold Hill, The Music Man, is a parody of a con artist.  But there are many who don't even notice the outrageous con portrayed in the musical.

                  Dangerous con artists aren't so obvious. A conspiracy theorist posing as a whistleblower is a particularly evil and dangerous but effective technique used by a con artist. My choice for the top poster child of a successful con artist is Julian Assange, whose first email address was If that doesn't give you  a clue, nothing will. Edward Snowden is another. Gelnn Greenwald. Dick Cheeeeney. W. To me, they're obvious con artists. Sure, a few things they bring up are true. But that's the distraction, not the con.

                  "Never wrestle with a pig: you get dirty and the pig enjoys it"

                  by GrumpyOldGeek on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 11:00:37 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Borderline is narcissism PLUS.... (14+ / 0-)

                Narcissism is a feature of both borderline and antisocial personality disorders, and sometimes other personality disorders as well. But borderline personality disorder has a much more chaotic and self-destructive nature, and in the vast majority of cases stems from a significant abuse history, often sexual. Borderline PD is now classified by many as Compex Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, which seems appropriate given the frequent association of BPD with trauma, and the acuity of symptomatology associated with BPD.

                Narcissistic personality disorder can exist in people who function at a very high level socially. Borderline, not so much. IMO, pathological narcissism is a driving force for many with extreme right wing views--a bunch of people who perceive themselves as victimized, and lack empathy for "the other", and rely on each other to reinforce their world views. However, antisocial personality disorder is an extreme variant of narcissism that extends to lack of any moral hinging at all, predisposing them to criminal behavior and callous exploitation of others. This guy sounds like he smack dab on the cusp between the two of those diagnoses. I would likely diagnosis him with "Personality Disorder NOS (not otherwise specified) with Narcissistic and Antisocial traits."

                Battling psychiatric myths with sensible skepticism at

                by candid psychiatrist on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 06:26:41 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  And by the way... (12+ / 0-)

                  A personality disorder will NOT keep this guy out of prison.

                  Battling psychiatric myths with sensible skepticism at

                  by candid psychiatrist on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 06:27:49 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  most interesting: (5+ / 0-)

                  What you said: Borderline PD = Complex PTSD.  Presumably from childhood traumas.  Interesting hypothesis; how strongly is that supported with case data?

                  I've known high-functioning narcissists and wish I hadn't.

                  What do you think of the hypothesis that our culture is suffering from the effects of pandemics of narcissistic and antisocial personality disorders?  

                  And, what will it take to get the public awareness of those disorders up to where it is with autism spectrum disorders?

                  We got the future back. Uh-oh.

                  by G2geek on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 06:54:50 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  There's evidence to support this view (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Philpm, GrumpyOldGeek

                    Research psychologist at U. San Diego has numerous studies documenting an increase in narcissism in the US over the last several decades, based on several measures.  As always, subject to debate.  Her name slips my aged mind right now, but I'll find it.  

                  •  Too big a problem. ASD can be treated with early (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    GrumpyOldGeek, Calamity Jean

                    intervention, (with varying degrees of success), and the expansion of that population is straining the system already.

                    And those with ASD are mostly self involved, a lot of the personality disorders are aggressively up in others' business. They're very manipulative and intrusive and much more difficult to ride herd on.

                    We don't have nearly enough infrastructure to deal with that population on top of everything else. Even though they do so damned much damage.

                    Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. ~The Druid.
                    ~Ideals aren't goals, they're navigation aids.~

                    by FarWestGirl on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 10:00:25 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The sad reality. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      We don't have nearly enough infrastructure to deal with that population on top of everything else. Even though they do so damned much damage.
                      It's not profitable.

                      Faux Noise is profitable.

                      The infrastructure promotes defective thinking and provides rationalizations that exacerbate various personality disorders.  Treatment is not only discouraged, it is demonized. For a profit; money, power, fame, ego, whatever.

                      The witch-burning frenzy got out of control soon after Gutenberg made mass communication possible. The telephone and the telegraph drastically increased the speed and scope of mass communications. Then the radio. Then TV. Then Cable TV. Then the Internet.

                      The human brain evolved to deal with input within a smaller environment appropriate to the social animals that we are.

                      We are fucked up because evolution can't keep up any more.

                      12 cents....

                      "Never wrestle with a pig: you get dirty and the pig enjoys it"

                      by GrumpyOldGeek on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 11:31:42 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  Exactamundo... (6+ / 0-)

              But with a definite antisocial streak!

              Battling psychiatric myths with sensible skepticism at

              by candid psychiatrist on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 06:10:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  IOW, the very definition of "danger to society" (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              papercut, Philpm, Turn Left

              How this disease became contagious is beyond me; but it's becoming awfully common.

              Last full month in which the average daily temperature did not exceed twentieth-century norms: 2/1985 - Harper's Index, 2/2013

              by kamarvt on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 07:24:13 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Sexual predator doesn't enter into it (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            The guy is bright, but he's not smart enough to know when to keep his mouth shut. Which is important to survive a place like prison.

        •  Diagnosing people based on a news article (4+ / 0-)

          is foolish. Anyone with real psych training and experience will tell you this. That people here are so quick to blame every single right wing misdeed on mental illness is neither useful nor is it correct.

          No War but Class War

          by AoT on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 07:42:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  They tend to be very difficult to treat due to the (0+ / 0-)

          lack of insight and inability of patients to recognize they have a problem.

          And yeah, from a distance at least, it does sound a lot like he does.

          Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. ~The Druid.
          ~Ideals aren't goals, they're navigation aids.~

          by FarWestGirl on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 09:47:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  my eyes are definitely not working (8+ / 0-)

        I read your last line as "Maybe we should hope he is euthanized and reformed."

      •  That's an argument for prison reform (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Not for harsher sentences for people with whom you disagree politically and/or philosophically.

        No War but Class War

        by AoT on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 07:09:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think it was different point (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          I think that point is that the prison sentence ends.  However, if he's institutionalized, his various personality problems will cause him to never be allowed out of supervision of the state.


          by otto on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 07:31:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, the point was that prison would merely teach (0+ / 0-)

            him ways to commit crimes, which is an argument for prison reform, not for institutionalization. Classifying everyone who does something we disapprove of as mentally ill is neither correct, nor useful, and that's exactly what people are doing here. Amateur diagnoses based on a news article is foolish and almost 100% certain to be wrong. Any trained and experienced psychologist will tell you that.

            No War but Class War

            by AoT on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 07:48:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I note a recent report that the Sovereign (21+ / 0-)

    Citizen movement is the largest threat facing LE

    One problem I note with the recent surge in OC type protests is that someone carrying a gun in plain sight is no longer a reason to call 911, according to the NRA.  Evidently it is only after the person has committed a crime that anyone can say anything to him.

    For example, consider this guy:

    Can't you imagine his trying to stop a robbery?  Personally if he is going to use a street howitzer to take out the bad guy, I would prefer that he refrain  

    •  lions and tigers and bears, oh my! (8+ / 0-)

      "....the sovereign citizen movement was perceived to be the gravest terrorist threat, rivaling Islamist extremists and militia/patriot groups."

      Yes, that would be right-wing domestic terrorists at the top of LE's threat list, co-equal with AQ.

      Fortunately a lot of them like to use hand-printed license plates on their cars, making them easy to spot.

      Unfortunately they have a tendency to shoot cops when they're pulled over.

      Any cop who pulls one of them over, would be wise to call in a backup and also a helicopter, though the latter should stay just out of sight so it doesn't provoke the driver.  Then order the guy to exit the vehicle with hands up.  AND any passengers, ditto, because they should all be considered armed and dangerous on sight.  I do not envy anyone who has to deal with them.

      We got the future back. Uh-oh.

      by G2geek on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 03:17:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  another wild hypothesis... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, Philpm, Catte Nappe

      I wonder about this:

      "Law enforcement is much more concerned about sovereign citizens, Islamic extremists, and militia/patriot group members compared to the fringe groups of the far right, including Christian Identity believers, reconstructed traditionalists (i.e., Odinists), idiosyncratic sectarians (i.e.,survivalists), and members of doomsday cults.”"

      Notice that left-identified groups don't even make the list, including eco-terrorists (such as the guy Sandiego who is wanted by FBI for setting off bombs at a biotech company's HQ in California).  Yet we frequently hear federal LE talking about eco-terrorists.  

      The wild hypothesis is: perhaps the public talk about eco-terrorists is intended to create the impression that the Feds are obsessed with leftie-terrorists, when in fact they are paying more attention to rightie-terrorists and don't want the latter to get their guard up.  "Look, a squirrel!  Over there!";-)  

      We got the future back. Uh-oh.

      by G2geek on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 03:40:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  it beats the old FBI report that listed (4+ / 0-)

        eco-terrorism as the main threat facing LE or the JD report that got withdrawn when it named RW militia groups as the main threat facing LE

      •  can we leave politics out of the speculation about (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:


        He's a sick individual who saw a girl he wanted and took her. Put 'er in a pumpkin shell and there he kept her till he nearly killed her. End of rhyme. End of reason. There is no reason beyond selfish rotten asshole here.

        Can everybody pleeeze stop trying to make him a republican, a libertarian, anything beyond a God Damn criminal Asshole!

        We are all pupils in the eyes of God.

        by nuclear winter solstice on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 05:12:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  uh, no. (6+ / 0-)

          "Stop speculating about theories and hypotheses, just stick to blunt moral condemnation."  That's obscurantist.  

          It's worthwhile and necessary to understand the whats & whys behind individual criminals, and to look for general patterns of behavior.  In anticipation of the usual comment to the effect that "none of us here can do anything," yes we can.  Some of us around here have experience with investigating and/or prosecuting various relevant types of criminals.  Not to mention that progressive politics also encompasses policies on law enforcement and criminal justice.

          In any case the entire point of this diary was to dig into the politics of the suspect.  Which we are doing.

          We got the future back. Uh-oh.

          by G2geek on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 05:49:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  okay. got sidetracked from the point by the utter (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kamarvt, Turn Left

            awfulness of this whole thing.

            It's worthwhile and necessary to understand the whats & whys behind individual criminals, and to look for general patterns of behavior.
            That is exactly what I think too, and I am not only a reader of true-crime and text-books about crime, I'm trying to be a writer of something similar. I didn't realize how personally I was taking this particular case until I read your comment. Oops. Lost objectivity for a minute. (I'm also from NH and although I have no other connection, I watched the arraignment live and am very concerned in that sense.)

            and now, slightly off-topic to this diary, but relevant to dkos subjects in general and in tune with that comment

            It's worthwhile and necessary to understand the whats & whys behind individual criminals, and to look for general patterns of behavior.
            there is a book I would like to suggest that has a lot to say about Benjamin Netanyahu, although you wouldn't know that by the title, Harvard and the Unabomber: The Education of an American Terrorist.
                 Clarence Darrow got away with last century's affluenza by blaming Leopold & Loeb's horrific crime on Nihilism taught at the Universities. If that sort of thinking (or other political ideology) is still being applied, let me please put that book on the table too.
                 Yes, who Kibby is is important, I just don't want to see it be used to obfuscate or explain away the awfulness of the actual act.

            We are all pupils in the eyes of God.

            by nuclear winter solstice on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 06:57:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, you make a good point. His alleged kidnap (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              nuclear winter solstice

              and imprisonment of this girl probably has nothing to do with his political ideology, and everything to do with his (likely) criminal personality.

              I must admit, though, that the other comments are very interesting, as he does have this political side to him that seems very common on the fringe. But you are correct, we shouldn't let this obscure his truly awful, but non-political, crime.

              "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

              by Turn Left on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 09:23:36 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  The feds are intensely focused on the Left (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Philpm, Oh Mary Oh

        and especially radical environmentalists. They regularly raid houses as well as have many informants setting people up and goading them into crimes, crimes that the informant and the police often plan and fund.

        No War but Class War

        by AoT on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 07:51:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Ego motivated behavior via objectivist moral code (9+ / 0-)

    is a warmed over version of socio-pathology ie:  if I want it, laws don't really apply to me, I'm superior so I just take what I want, as in abduct a 14 year old girl  and keep her incarcerated in my home for nine months.  A Libertarian gone haywire, Ayn Rand would not approve bully boy and no guns ever for you.

    •  Oh wouldn't she? (0+ / 0-)

      In her callow and newly-immigrant youth she approved much, MUCH worse.

      If it's
      Not your body,
      Then it's
      Not your choice
      And it's
      None of your damn business!

      by TheOtherMaven on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 09:08:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's also the basis of Civil Disobedience (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      The Hindsight Times

      and all rejection of immoral laws. That was the basis of the civil rights movement, tha the laws were immoral and thus should not be followed. Certainly, Objectivism is a morally, and philosophically. objectionable set of ethics, but the idea that we should simply follow the law no matter what, even if we find it unjust, is absurd and leads to tyranny.

      If you disagree with Objectivism then disagree with the philosophy and argue against the philosophy, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Civil disobedience has a long and great history in the US.

      No War but Class War

      by AoT on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 09:13:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not to harsh your mellow, but few facts are known (20+ / 0-)

    I would expect that someone who is described as a loner, spends most of his time inside his trailer in a crowded trailer park, is known to collect guns, and whose neighbors say they're uncomfortable around him is not going to be known as a liberal, progressive, socially oriented individual.

    Your research pretty much confirms that he leans to the right and sticks to a typical sophomoric, almost childish, mishmash of libertarian-like beliefs. Although this information is interesting and seems to confirm some speculations, his political beliefs aren't relevant to prosecuting his case in court.

    He will be facing charges of kidnapping, possession of firearms, and other serious crimes. I don't know what was disclosed at his arraignment last week. Privacy is paramount in this case.  

    His behavior tells us a lot more about his background and behavior. Although I think there could be symptoms of an underlying personality disorder or other mental conditions, there's no chance of a legal insanity defense. None. His written LTE shows that mental deficiency can't be claimed.

    The imaginary scenario of a defense based on political, religious, or ideological beliefs would be instantly denied. It is not relevant to the charges in any way whatsoever. Annoying a federal prosecutor and a judge is a bad idea. But dumb lawyers exist and might try to go there.

    Keep in mind that very little relevant information has been disclosed. Partly because his victim is a minor and partly because the investigation just got underway. It's an active FBI investigation assisted by NH and Conway investigators.

    We know he was convicted as a juvenile of assault (the bullying stuff) when he was a high school freshman. He was permanently expelled from that high school for that. We don't know if that was the end of his education.

    About five years ago, he moved into the trailer park with a girlfriend. The girlfriend left him, rumored to be due to physical abuse, and he remained in the park living alone. Apparently, no formal charges were filed.

    Last year, he was charged with criminal trespassing and had assaulted a woman (knocked her down). Apparently, no assault charges were filed.

    So he has a history of assaults. That's the most important and relevant part of his behavior. The trespass charge might indicate stalking or vengeance behavior. Also important and relevant.

    We don't know much about his gun collection or whether he has ever used a gun to threaten anyone. But the court will confiscate all weapons for felony charges or convictions. His rambling Ayn Randian bullshit he said in his futile attempt to justify keeping his guns will be used as evidence against him. A really, really, stupid move.

    Yeah, just as stupid as claiming he can run a red light whenever he wants.... Dumb, dumb, dumb.

    We know next to nothing about the victim and what happened in the 9 months she was gone. It's useless to speculate.

    It's certainly a big story in Conway and NH, though. Eventually, we'll know a lot more about this creep and some hints about what went on.

    I speak from personal experience that involved a known sexual predator and the criminal trial that convicted the creep and sent him to jail.

    One look at the picture of the creep in Conway gave me chills. Eerily similar creepy appearance. Especially the dead eyes and the total lack of any discernible emotional clue in that flat and dead facial expression.

    Really, really, fucking creepy.

    Thanks for the additional info.

    "Never wrestle with a pig: you get dirty and the pig enjoys it"

    by GrumpyOldGeek on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 12:29:36 AM PDT

    •  visible sign of sociopathy. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GrumpyOldGeek, JeffW

      Excellent writeup of the case.  

      What you said:  "Especially the dead eyes and the total lack of any discernible emotional clue in that flat and dead facial expression."

      That is very typical of antisocial personality disorder.  Another typical sociopath behavior is "charm."  (Mnemonic: "charm" is spelled C-harm, pronounced "see harm.")

      I was guessing narcissistic personality disorder per a comment upthread a ways.  Narcissists aren't as good at the "charm" behavior, so that may give us some clues.

      In any case we'll probably find out as the case develops.

      We got the future back. Uh-oh.

      by G2geek on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 03:25:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  re:what was disclosed at his arraignment last week (6+ / 0-)


         Absolutely nothing was disclosed, and the tv in the court showed the defense requesting and trying to insist that they couldn't defend against the charges if they didn't even know what was in the sealed arraignment.
          The prosecution argued successfully that just arraigning him on the kidnap charge was enough to do the bail thing and keep him locked up now, and that the rest of the investigation was still underway.
          The judge said that was absolutely fine and when the defense objected again the judge said that she herself was the one who signed the initial warrant, she had seen the basic evidence and that was enough- just drop it, to the defense lawyer. Then the prosecuting lawyer said loudly and directly to the defense lawyer, across the court: You already have the best evidence available- you have your client!

      I couldn't believe she said that! You go, lady! That was nervy but well-deserved. I hope they continue to press him that hard.

      We are all pupils in the eyes of God.

      by nuclear winter solstice on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 05:08:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  ...I would speculate... (2+ / 0-)

        ...that they're probably going after some evidence he had sex with the minor or took pictures of her.  If the minor is uncooperative via the kidnapping charges (still speculation) then it may be the only charge they can really end up with.

      •  well done: (2+ / 0-)

        "I signed the initial warrant."

        "You have your client!"  

        Presumably the defense attorney will get additional statements of fact from the defendant, to fill in whatever didn't go into the arrest warrant.  

        By the time this is done, I get the impression the defendant is going to be facing enough charges to add up to more than a century in prison.  I'm going to guess he'll attempt to plea bargain for a sentence of 20 to life, with parole reviews starting at 20 years.  

        But if he's a narcissist and/or sociopath, whoever does those parole reviews will need to be reminded that sociopaths are manipulative as hell and permanently dangerous.  

        We got the future back. Uh-oh.

        by G2geek on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 07:03:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Objectivist moral code? (7+ / 0-)

    Doesn't that mean no moral code at all?

    Bello ne credite, Americani; quidquid id est, timeo Republicanos et securitatem ferentes.

    by Sura 109 on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 03:16:47 AM PDT

  •  "copping to a lesser charge for a shorter sentenc" (5+ / 0-)

    -the guy is only up against a maximum of seven years and a $4000 fine...for the kidnapping. Even the judge seemed a little dismayed, and local newscasters didn't know how to present the news: Look, he's facing a million dollars cash-only bail. NH's never done that before but everyone wants this guy to remain in jail.

    I sure as hell hope they find some more stuff to charge him with before this is over, because that sentence is sickeningly short.

    Now, without condoning anything that man has done, let me add my .02- It would appear by the timing that he also got laid off from his job last spring, and since she was apparently starving when he let her go, it occurred to me that he didn't actually want to kill her, and maybe he ditched her because he couldn't feed her anymore. Doesn't make him a nice guy. Only makes him not quite a murderer. IMHO, -jes' speculatin'.

    But back to my main point, it was shocking to find out after the fact that NH's statutes against this are pretty damn weak...

    We are all pupils in the eyes of God.

    by nuclear winter solstice on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 04:59:50 AM PDT

    •  it's almost a certainty that he... (2+ / 0-)

      ... sexually abused her, so there'll be multiple counts of child molestation, each of which ought to be worth another 10 years at minimum.  Nine months of captivity probably entailed enough of that conduct to add up to more than a century of prison time.  With plea bargaining, a minimum of 20 years.

      We got the future back. Uh-oh.

      by G2geek on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 07:06:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What is the point of keeping someone over 7 years? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      That is a tenth of a person's life. Can he be remediated and reeducated in 7 years? If not, how long?

      It is the easiest thing in the world to demand harsher and harsher sentences, but what is the point of it? Release a person at age 60 who has no functional understanding of the world outside prison? He didn't kill anyone, how much of his life will be sacrificed?

      Is he going to be better or worse for his time in prison? Can he ever have a useful role again?

      Between life sentence and no sentence, how long is just punishment, how long until a person becomes institutionalized? Our prisons are hell, his existence will be especially hellish for his crime - seven years seems plenty if he could ever be released.

      And why keep him alive if he can never be released?

      •  the point is to keep a person swho could do that (0+ / 0-)

        locked up so he can't do it again.

        I don't care about rehabbing him or punishing him nearly so much as I care about protecting the children and others from him. Protecting the public from a person who can randomly do that is very important and shouldn't get lost in the debate.

        We are all pupils in the eyes of God.

        by nuclear winter solstice on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 06:24:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Ah. I think I've spotted his problem. (10+ / 0-)
    Kibby later protested the bail conditions in a court filing, saying his firearms were “of immense equitable value” and that he was not a threat because he lived by an “objectivist libertarian moral code.”
    He thinks there is such a thing as an "objectivist libertarian moral code."

    Objectivist libertarianism is inherently incompatible with anything that could be described as a "moral code."

    The amorality of the objectivist libertarian philosophy* makes those who espouse it irredeemably immoral, such that they are incapable of being moral on any level or in any way until they repent of objectivist libertarianism and acknowledge the existence of some kind of transcendent and universally-binding morality and responsibility to their neighbor.

    * The term "philosophy" is used very loosely here; insofar as a three-year-old child grabbing all of the toys and yelling "MINE MINE MINE MINE MINE" is espousing a philosophy, so too are objectivist libertarians.

    "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

    by JamesGG on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 05:26:37 AM PDT

  •  Libertarianism Is Based Entirely on Fraud. (7+ / 0-)

    Its [well, by "it" I may more properly refer to objectivism than libertarianism generally] 2nd biggest fraud is that people are individuals. Homo Sapiens is a social species, which around the world pan-culturally and historically practices as one of its most severe punishments, shunning/ostracism. Like all social animals from ants and chickens to ourselves, we have innate drives for altruism and self sacrifice to non-relatives, alongside the drives for individual gain and self protection the myopic objectivists are able to perceive.

    But the biggest fraud is that government is typically far too intrusive because individuals usually do not cause harm in pursuing their self interest. They claim we would have a much less intrusive regulatory world if we let everyone swing their metaphorical fists just so long as they weren't hitting anyone else's metaphorical noses.

    In fact the march of progress for a thousand years has shown that we consistently vastly underestimate harms caused by individual pursuit of happiness. The extreme society for this is the US, when the size and impact of our society on humanity and the planet are factored into the equation.

    The notion that others' noses are not being hit by our swinging fist is pedaled by demanding that the measurement of nose injury be confined to the most archaic possible measures of time and physicality, whereas the pursuit of happiness must be allowed the most advanced cutting-edge science and technology even to the point of suppressing safety testing.

    In fact, an honest libertarian must admit that in our time, global warming is happening because the entire atmosphere of earth is oversaturated in carbon. That in turn means that the tiniest human action anywhere on earth, at any pace, even as little as opening your eyes in the morning, adds carbon to the air that wouldn't otherwise be done.

    And so every human activity down to waking up in the morning adds to the injury to all life and property everywhere on earth, and therefore governance has a regulatory interest in absolutely everything. And the more individual liberty we choose to allow on the personal scale, the more in compensation we must regulate larger activity of enterprises and societies in order to bring the carbon level down to a distant goal that will cease injuring life and property.

    An honest libertarian would be demanding a more controlled economy than the Soviets ran, on a planet undergoing human-driven climate change.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 05:52:07 AM PDT

    •  An honest libertarian is hard to find. I've yet... (3+ / 0-)

      An honest libertarian is hard to find.

      I've yet to locate one.

      In the specific case of this diary, I don't understand how a kidnapper can call himself a libertarian.

    •  It should actually be called Libert-Aryani$m. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pat bunny, G2geek

      The reasoning is very simple: Do you know any African-American or Central American Libertarians? Not likely, because they know it's of no benefit to them.

      All you have to do is listen to Libertarians whine and bitch and it's easy to see two things:

      1. Libertarianism in America is an ideology steeped very deep in the defense of the privilege of bitter rich white men.

      2. Their single villain ideology blames the government for everything that's wrong with the world and completely negates the reality that the wealthy have literally bought the government and have paid off officials to look the other way while they (the rich) continue to rape the environment and the economy.

      I say this all the time because it's not difficult to see it for what it is, but Libertarianism in the United States is a First World ideology that seeks to drag us back to the 3rd World kicking in screaming, and for many areas in the US that really isn't a far stretch at this point.

      I write a series called 'My Life as an Aspie', documenting my experiences before and after my A.S. diagnosis as a way to help fellow Aspies and parents of Aspies and spread awareness. If I help just one person by doing this, then I've served a purpose.

      by Homer177 on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 06:32:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, I do. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sethtriggs, BachFan

        I used to run into the Libertarian party group on campus, back in college (The one I went to was very conservative, the Libertarians were almost as large as the Democrats)  There were occasionally debates and/or voter drives that involved both groups.

        It was about 50% racial minorities, I recall their president being a Hispanic female.

        Now, perhaps the segment of Libertarians who goes to college is a small subset of the total movement, but it certainly wasn't all (or even mostly) white males.

        •  Yeah, but the big wigs hate them all the same. nt (0+ / 0-)

          I write a series called 'My Life as an Aspie', documenting my experiences before and after my A.S. diagnosis as a way to help fellow Aspies and parents of Aspies and spread awareness. If I help just one person by doing this, then I've served a purpose.

          by Homer177 on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 07:33:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  You don't have to be a self centered jerk (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    G2geek, FiredUpInCA

    to be a "libertarian" aka republicant, but it helps.

  •  "Too" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I think, probably he or she went "too far".

    •  Yeah... I got a message about this. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Liberal Thinking

      But by the time it was brought to my attention the diary had made the rec list and I had been asleep overnight, so I feel kind of weird making a typographical correction at this stage.  

      I will gladly take the barbs for being semi literate compared to most diarist, because if I am frank about it, that is the truth.  My (funnily enough libertarian wife) has a grand time making fun of me about it!

      I am the neo-con nightmare, I am a liberal with the facts.

      by bhfrik on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 12:22:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No Barb Intended (0+ / 0-)

        I just thought you might want to edit it. If you write much you're going to have typos. It's inevitable.

        Just as a word of advice, I put everything into Word and pay attention to what it tells me. I try to deal with every squiggly line. What a pain.

        If it were me, I would edit it anyway, no matter how late. You never know when something you put on the Web will be dragged out into the spotlight. It's a permanent part of history.

        Now, just tell me her name's not "Barb". That would be truly funny!

  •  I disagree about one point (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    there is no point in litigating the history of the Bush administration
    Why hasn't a single person in the Bush administration been held accountable for war crimes (see: Abu Ghraib, etc.) and the biggest financial heist in world  history (see: Henry Paulson's 3 page ransom note to congress and TARP, etc.).
  •  It's religious (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Major Kong, certainot

    In reference to your suggestion of his defense, we already know that this sort of politically ideological thinking is religious, to an extent.

    The libertarian in the wild seems to revert to key quotes from the dogma, even if those ideas are seemingly irrelevant.

    I talked to some ibertarian for a while.  

    He said that government is force, and that private property is paramount.

    Okay, I told him, I'm sitting on your land.. actually, I decided it's not your land.  

    Now, without resorting to force, can you make me leave?


    by otto on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 07:28:32 AM PDT

  •  Psychopath (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Is what he is.

    I ask him if he was warm enough? "Warm," he growled, "I haven't been warm since Bastogne."

    by Unrepentant Liberal on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 07:31:34 AM PDT

  •  Not a Novel Defense (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT, Darwinian Detritus
    Imagine the defense pleading incapcity, due to ideological indoctrination.

    This defense is not at all novel. People have been telling judges they're "good churchgoing Christians", who couldn't possibly have committed whatever crime, since before the Revolution. It's probably a popular defense from Jewish suspects in jurisdictions where Jews aren't demonized. I suspect other religions don't invoke it as much, except in the most cosmopolitan courts.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 07:46:17 AM PDT

  •  A "novel" defense (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bhfrik, Darwinian Detritus, Shockwave

    based on Ayn Rand.  Perfect!

    It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

    by Radiowalla on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 07:52:20 AM PDT

  •  They get more and more brazen. (0+ / 0-)

    My heart goes out to the teenaged girl this psychopath kidnapped. She will have life-long effects from this horror.

    Supple and turbulent, a ring of men/ Shall chant in orgy on a summer morn...

    by karmsy on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 07:59:52 AM PDT

  •  Ayn Rand drooled over a serial killer (6+ / 0-)
    Back in the late 1920s, as Ayn Rand was working out her philosophy, she became enthralled by a real-life American serial killer, William Edward Hickman, whose gruesome, sadistic dismemberment of 12-year-old girl named Marion Parker in 1927 shocked the nation.
    there is the “objectivist libertarian moral code.”
  •  Menace to society. (0+ / 0-)

    And yup: A republican.

  •  Ayn Rand libertarianism is a dangerous dystopia... (0+ / 0-) Marxism.  It may look good on paper but once implemented it becomes something else.  

    I dabbled in libertarianism in the 90s until I thought through its implications.  Once you take it to its logical conclusion you get it but its adherents seem incapable of doing this.  They have become ideological fanatics.

    Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action. UID: 9742

    by Shockwave on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 11:18:44 AM PDT

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