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Lake Mead, Nevada
It's bad. Really bad:
A new study by NASA and University of California, Irvine, scientists finds more than 75 percent of the water loss in the drought-stricken Colorado River Basin since late 2004 came from underground resources. The extent of groundwater loss may pose a greater threat to the water supply of the western United States than previously thought.

This study is the first to quantify the amount that groundwater contributes to the water needs of western states. According to the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation, the federal water management agency, the basin has been suffering from prolonged, severe drought since 2000 and has experienced the driest 14-year period in the last hundred years.

Scientists were shocked at the results of their latest study:
"We don't know exactly how much groundwater we have left, so we don't know when we're going to run out," said Stephanie Castle, a water resources specialist at the University of California, Irvine, and the study's lead author. "This is a lot of water to lose. We thought that the picture could be pretty bad, but this was shocking."
If you live in the western and southwestern part of the United States, it's even worse:
"Combined with declining snowpack and population growth, this will likely threaten the long-term ability of the basin to meet its water allocation commitments to the seven basin states and to Mexico," Famiglietti said.
What's more troubling, while westerners are conserving water in a historic drought, the Nestle Corporation is still draining western aquifers for profit:
The plant, located on the Morongo Band of Mission Indians' reservation, has been drawing water from wells alongside a spring in Millard Canyon for more than a decade. But as California's drought deepens, some people in the area question how much water the plant is bottling and whether it's right to sell water for profit in a desert region where springs are rare and underground aquifers have been declining.

"Why is it possible to take water from a drought area, bottle it and sell it?" asked Linda Ivey, a Palm Desert real estate appraiser who said she wonders about the plant's use of water every time she drives past it on Interstate 10.

"It's hard to know how much is being taken," Ivey said. "We've got to protect what little water supply we have."

The Desert Sun has an extensive exposé on the struggle over water rights in the Southwest. It's well worth the read.

Originally posted to Scout Finch on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 01:16 PM PDT.

Also republished by Climate Change SOS and Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Is it really that hard to desalinize (17+ / 0-)

    the ocean water in this day and age of incredible technological advances and breakthroughs?

    Best Scientist Ever Predicts Bacon Will Be Element 119 On The Periodic Table

    by dov12348 on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 01:24:32 PM PDT

    •  Not at all. Ya just need a HUGE source of heat (26+ / 0-)

      ...which means either a lot of fossil fuel or a nuke.

      So not hard, just expensive.

      A far more interesting question-

      Do we need bottled water at all?
      At least in this country, tap water's about universally potable, regardless of what our TV's tell us.

      Why do we pay 10x as much to get water in a plastic bottle, when we could drink practically free from an infinitely reusable glass or canteen?

      •  Wouldn't nuclear energy be worth it? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JPax

        Best Scientist Ever Predicts Bacon Will Be Element 119 On The Periodic Table

        by dov12348 on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 01:33:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Personally, I think so, but nukes these days are (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          psnyder, Bluefin, JPax

          a hard sell. I don't think that the deployment of a large # of small pebble beds ( ya wanna have multiple facilities close to pop centers to avoid transport costs/impacts- water is heavy) is politically feasible within the foreseeable future.

          It's pointed out downthread that solar could be used- I never think of it, because I've seen very little industrial application of solar. I don't know enough to be able to say how practical that might be.

          •  Nuclear powered generating stations (11+ / 0-)

            would require a significant amount of fresh water (once through cooling using ocean water would be unacceptable). I honestly don't think that we will see another new nuclear plant constructed in the U.S.

            •  LFTR's and gravel/pebble reactors don't need (13+ / 0-)

              water. They're self contained units, basically a battery the size of a large refrigerator to a small semi trailer, that can generate power for a village, factory, etc. They're very different from the billion dollar boondoggles of existing nuke plants. They also can be made to run on the waste products of existing plants or thorium and their designs include features like shutting down when damaged rather than run-away meltdown. Also they can't be used to create weapons. But they've got the word "nuclear" in them so they must be bad and won't be a likely option for power.

              GOP 2014 strategy -- Hire clowns, elephants, and a ringmaster and say "a media circus" has emerged and blame Democrats for lack of progress. Have pundits agree that "both sides are to blame" and hope the public will stay home on election day.

              by ontheleftcoast on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:13:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  If Congress will allocate the funding, (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Bluefin

                we could have test reactors on line in 15 years and commercial reactors connected to the utility grid in 30.

                Is Congress allocating the funding?

                Tar sands, fracking and deep water drilling are expensive. Crude oil price exceeded $100/bbl in 2008 where it still hovers. NH₃ based fertilizer feeds an estimated ⅓ of the world with the Haber-Bosch process using natural gas as a feedstock.

                by FrY10cK on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 04:48:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Unfundable, and rightly so. (10+ / 0-)
                  Is Congress allocating the funding?
                  No way.

                  Dead on Arrival.

                  First, gridlock in Congress.

                  Second, good reasons on both the left & the right ends of political spectrum for not funding it.

                  Third, money. Wind and solar technology cost curves have come down so far that they've cut the legs out from under even the most optimistic nuclear revival /LFTR/gravel/pebble scenarios. Plus wind and solar will be benefitting from favorable cost curves for years and decades to come.

                  Solar is the ultimate nuclear technology: 100% automated longterm sustainable fusion generator, optimally sited 93 million miles from earth -- photonic distribution to earth -- all with zero infrastructure CapEx or OpEx -- and then decentralized photoelectric transducers close to point of use. The ultimate in simplicity & efficiency & scalability.

                  Fourth, time. 15 years to test reactors and 30 to grid-tie production? Best joke I've heard all day. Just extending current price & penetration curves, Solar & Li-Ion are on track to replace all fossil and all nuclear before 2044. Add in wind, other renewable innovations, and the radical energy efficiency breakthroughs that digital technology keeps on bringing -- in other words, abundant supply, intelligent timeshifting (storage technology), and peaking/leveling/shrinking demand -- and it's clear that nuclear is done: stick a fork in it.

                  #3: ensure network neutrality; #2: ensure electoral integrity; #1: ensure ecosystemic sustainability.

                  by ivote2004 on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 05:59:58 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  They aren't without their problems (0+ / 0-)

                The test plants that have been built have had their problems. In so far as there is money to test out things with such a long pay off horizon, they could be developed as a way to dispose of waste from old power plants, but there are more practical ways to generate energy at this point and that is where we should be focusing our funding. Also, no one is proposing building anything but old style reactors.

            •  Multiple coolant loops reduce fresh water need. (0+ / 0-)

              Pressurized light-water reactors use a multiple coolant loops and heat exchangers. The primary coolant is very clean fresh water. The same for the second loop. The third loop is open to the environment and might use sea water. In this setup, there's not really a high demand for fresh water.

              -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

              by JPax on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 10:05:06 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Or we could use that safe nuclear energy Bill Nye (0+ / 0-)

            talks about: fission reactor about 93 million miles offshore.

            LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

            by BlackSheep1 on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 10:03:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I'm in favor. (0+ / 0-)

            Since having read the first EPA report on climate change in the early 80s.

            For desal:  Secondary cooling loop desalinizes seawater, some of the resulting freshwater is used in the primary loop, the rest goes to regional communities' water supplies.

            The only problem is, the West Coast is full of extremely dangerous earthquake faults.   But the reactors could be built inland, with water pipes extending to & from the ocean, and cooling ponds adjacent to the plants.  

            Thus the reactor is in a safe location and if a quake damages the to/from water pipes, the plant can run on locally stored cooling water, or at least for long enough to effect a safe shutdown.  The longer water pipes are an added cost, but the greatest expense is for trenching & installation, so running three pipes is only an incremental cost compared to one.  (Three pipes: seawater intake to reactor, freshwater output to coastal communities' water systems, and brine output to ocean.)

            We got the future back. Uh-oh.

            by G2geek on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 06:21:21 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Nuclear waste can be easily turned into a... (5+ / 0-)

          ...radiogenic weapon. It doesn't have to explode at all. Just take a pound of it, grind it up into a very fine powder, then release it into the air or the air conditioning of a building.

          There simply won't be enough security to make sure that some of that poison will stay out of terrorist hands.

          A million Arcosantis.

          by Villabolo on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 02:12:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  How much water to make plastics? (14+ / 0-)
            Individual Bottled Water

            This irony shouldn't be lost on anyone: it takes 1.85 gallons of water to manufacture the plastic for the bottle in the average commercial bottle of water.

            Curious about other products that require using water and how much?  Read more here:
            http://www.treehugger.com/...
            Where to being to quote how we waste water making products that we end up tossing away in the trash....
            The Hidden Water in Everyday Products

            http://gracelinks.org/...

            And I just grabbed the first two links in google.  Plastic products drive me into a spin when I begin to think about how we really screwed up when we thought we were so smart producing plastic products.  Don't get me started on bottled water or my biggest gripe, plastic packaging.  Plastic products that require petroleum.  That makes the Koch Bros. very happy.  

            Anyhow, this news from NASA is very disturbing.

            I would rather spend my life searching for truth than live a single day within the comfort of a lie. ~ John Victor Ramses

            by KayCeSF on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:26:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I reuse one gallon water bottles... (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              KayCeSF, Bluefin, greengemini

              ...and get my water from an over the counter kitchen filter which is good for a couple of thousand gallons. The filter is (of course) made of plastic but it more than pays off, in filtered water and plastic use, after a few months.

              A million Arcosantis.

              by Villabolo on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:58:53 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Good for you! I invested in an under-sink filter, (4+ / 0-)

                it's metal and was a bit over my budget, but like you it has saved money in the long run even though every 6-8 mos. I need to replace filters, and I have found I never need plastic bottles.  I use stainless steel travel mugs and thermoses.  There just isn't any excuse for using bottled water anymore.  I always carry a little thermos in my car or handbag in case I need water when out and about and I can always fill it up at a water fountain.

                I do have some plastic bottled water in my pantry for emergency.  

                I try very hard to buy anything and everything in glass containers, even for food storage.  

                [Thank you very much, Tupperware for starting it all way-back-when.]

                I would rather spend my life searching for truth than live a single day within the comfort of a lie. ~ John Victor Ramses

                by KayCeSF on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 04:18:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I put my plastic water containers, (4+ / 0-)

                  filled with water in a freezer for emergency use. The freezing eliminates the need for rotating or sterilizing the water (It does get germy after a couple of months at room temperature). The freezer will also stay cold longer, if the power goes out, when it's half filled with frozen water.

                  A million Arcosantis.

                  by Villabolo on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 05:27:29 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  OH! I never thought of doing that! (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    BlackSheep1

                    Thank you!  I have a deep freeze in the garage that's empty.  What better place to put them!  Good advice, thanks again!

                    I would rather spend my life searching for truth than live a single day within the comfort of a lie. ~ John Victor Ramses

                    by KayCeSF on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 07:57:39 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  I reuse those 64oz juice bottles (cran-whatever), (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BlackSheep1

                fill with tap water (no filter), put 'em in the icebox for cold drinking water (and mixing other drinks); and keep a bunch in the freezer for use in the travel coolers, they also extend the 'cold' in case of power outages. Just the right size containers too.
                One or two juice brands use a quality, strong bottle (some are way too flimsy to resuse and have to handle).
                Trouble is I've built up a surplus of them filling a shelf in the pantry.

                "The church of life is not in a building, it is the open sky, the surrounding ocean, the beautiful soil"...George Helm, 1/1977

                by Bluefin on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 08:40:55 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  whatever happened to glass soda bottles (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Superpole

              you could pick up out of the barditches and turn in for a refund at the store? I used to double/triple my allowance during summers with an evening stroll along the highway...

              LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

              by BlackSheep1 on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 10:05:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Wind turbine blades can be used as battering rams (0+ / 0-)

            Easily too, when you have access to cranes, trucks, flatbeds...

            What makes you think there won't be enough security? And what makes you think turning some unspecified type of nuclear waste could be easily turned into anything. If the radioactivity is low, then it's just a scare bomb, if it's highly deadly, then there's nothing easy about it.

            -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

            by JPax on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 10:17:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Scare bombs are the best kind. (0+ / 0-)

              No particular danger to the perp, extensive hysteria for the pop.

              "...we live in the best most expensive third world country." "If only the NEA could figure out all they have to do is define the ignorance of the next generation as a WMD..." ---Stolen from posts on Daily Kos

              by jestbill on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 10:44:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Unless the populace understands science... (0+ / 0-)

                and progressives believe in science and would understand that a scare bomb isn't that dangerous. Right?

                If it's republicans who are apoplectic and running around like chickens with their head cut off... well, it might be fun to watch.

                -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

                by JPax on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 11:57:59 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  far simpler to make bioweapons. (0+ / 0-)

            Getting hold of nuclear material is very difficult, even lower-grade material for a radiological dispersal device (RDD), aka "dirty bomb."

            Getting a used gene-sequencing machine is easy and cheap.

            Genetic blueprints are widely available for a range of fatal contagious diseasess.

            And, from the terrorist perspective, the best thing about germs is that they can do something that radioactive material can't:  multiply.   Bioweapons are "the gift that keeps on giving," after you initially release them.

            We got the future back. Uh-oh.

            by G2geek on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 06:24:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Every water-to-steam power plant uses LOTS (10+ / 0-)

            of water. If you are boiling water to generate steam to spin a turbine, and then sending water to cooling towers, you are using a ton of water. That includes natural gas plants, coal plants, and nuclear plants.  It also includes, to a lesser extent, the concentrated solar plants.

            The only way to get away from the high water consumption demands of power generation is with wind or photovoltaics. Oh, and ironically, hydro.

            Yet another reason to go with wind and solar; water shortages.

            Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

            by bigtimecynic on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:19:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's right - nukes use the most, (0+ / 0-)

              but coal is a close 2nd.  That is THE reason we're going to get off nuke and fossil fuels whether Big Whatever likes it or not.  We don't have the water.  Right now we're mining fossil water and pretending we have enough water to run these plants, but it's fossil water and the more we waste it on power plants the sooner we won't have it for food and sanitation.

        •  cooling is a problem (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ivote2004

          with both severe drought and tsunami risks, as well as being in a very seismically active location.

        •  Risk Reward for Nuke does not compute (5+ / 0-)

          My husband was a nuke in the Navy, and I also used to know someone who worked as a safety trainer in the industry, and nuclear energy is just a mess. Right now, the after math of Fukushima is quietly making the main population center of Japan uninhabitable. This is largely because of the contamination of the ground water. Also, the situation isn't really under control and there is no knowing how it will really end.

          There are so many threats to our water supply, what with climate change and fracking, it is just time to change how we think about water. Desalinization has not been undertaken for a nation with a big population and would make no sense for our nation.

          •  Fukushima is just beginning (0+ / 0-)

            It's going to be a problem for the next million years, along with (eventually) every other nuke plant in the world.

            They tell me I'm pretty amusing from time to time working with 140 characters or less.

            by CharlieHipHop on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 08:10:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The longer the risk, the safer it is. (0+ / 0-)

              The science is settled and there is consensus. Radioactive decay is logarithmic. This means that the longer the half-life of a radionuclide, the less energy it emits per unit time.

              Look at this way, which is more dangerous: an item that emits all its energy in a brief flash or one that emits it over centuries? Better yet, look at a lit match for several seconds and then look at a camera flash and tell me which hurts your eyes more.

              -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

              by JPax on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 10:24:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  OK, (0+ / 0-)

                so you test that theory by inhaling some plutonium.

                High-level waste is not safe in any amount.

                They tell me I'm pretty amusing from time to time working with 140 characters or less.

                by CharlieHipHop on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 05:06:29 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  They've done tests (0+ / 0-)

                  Plutonium's not the problem, short half-life radioisotopes are.

                  -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

                  by JPax on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 02:25:32 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  What tests of what? (0+ / 0-)

                    Since a nuclear power plant is like both the match and the flash bulb, your analogy seems a little... irrelevant? And people working in the nuclear power industry must be mistaken, because they think plutonium is quite a big problem. The risk of any particular bit of nuclear waste may decrease over the years, but a large reservoir of low level nuclear waste in a forgotten salt mine could turn out to be a very big problem a few thousand years from now.

                    •  Waste should be reprocessed. (0+ / 0-)

                      That would keep it out of the salt mine and contribute to the energy paradigm that keeps CO2 out of the atmosphere. More advanced reactor designs, like LFTR could make use of it without a need for long term storage in Nevada. As long as they don't build it in an obvious disaster zone, it should be okay.

                      CO2 and methane are worse threats to the global environment than the radioactivity releases from properly operating nuclear plants.

                      It probably doesn't matter. By the time we could get new nuclear plants up and running, we'd have pumped so much CO2 and Methane into the atmosphere, that civilization will collapse within a century from climate change. Miami is already lost, they just won't notice it for a few decades yet.

                      -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

                      by JPax on Tue Jul 29, 2014 at 04:04:24 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I substantially agree with you (0+ / 0-)

                        As a long term response to nuclear waste, LFTR is certainly worth pursuing, over the long term, on a smaller scale than usually undertaken by the energy industry. Isn't there some suitable staffed and funded university that could make a small scale experimental plant? In the mean time, solar, wind, conservation, lifestyle adjustments, etc., etc., are better positioned for short term solutions of how to make it to the second half of this century, assuming we don't just kill each other over something stupid.

                        Plus, the graphite balls still have to be disposed of.

        •  Nope. Aside from risk, real or perceived, lack (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ivote2004, CharlieHipHop, YucatanMan

          of a waste facility and protocol and cost... NOPE.

          The only hawk I like is the kind that has feathers. My birding blogs: http://thisskysings.wordpress.com/ and canyonbirds.net

          by cany on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 04:46:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  No hell NO (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bear83, DocGonzo, kurt

          Leaving behind a million-year problem for the mistakes of your generation (being gluttonous wasters of all that matters) is NOT. COOL. IN. ANY. WAY.

          They tell me I'm pretty amusing from time to time working with 140 characters or less.

          by CharlieHipHop on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 08:07:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I never buy bottled water (15+ / 0-)

        but I hardly leave home anymore and I use a Brita home pitcher water filter, because I have pretty hard water here (mineral buildup is a constant fight in my kitchen and bathroom).

        Still, it makes me sad to see people buying entire cases of bottled water at the local grocery store. Especially since I know that our local community public water EXCEEDS our mandated water quality every year, they send every county residence a large postcard mailer with the information each spring. Plus it tastes pretty good. But the local water tower which feeds us draws water from wells put in less than 10 years ago about 1500 feet from my place. That water feeds the water storage tower about 1/2 mile from my property, which in turns feeds my home water.

        Ever since they put in those new wells, the hard mineral content has gone up considerably, I've lived here 30+ years in this house, so I know.

        But the cost alone of bottled water (at about $4 to $10 for a plastic covered case of bottles each week or maybe bi-weely) versus the Brita system I have ($20-$30 for a gallon pitcher & 2 filters for about 4 months of filtered water) should be a deterrent to people buying it. I just don't understand why anyone does this instead of home filtering and using & reusing a single portable plastic water bottle, as I do.


        "I like paying taxes...with them, I buy Civilization"

        by Angie in WA State on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:21:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  We switched from Brita to Pur (0+ / 0-)

          Filters are more expensive, but go for 100 gallons instead of 40. Less waste and cheaper per gallon. Fits right on the tap rather than having to use the pitchers. Flip a switch for regular/filtered water.

          "It's the (expletive) 21st century man. Get over it." - David Ortiz

          by grubber on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 04:53:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I like the pitcher, I keep it in the fridge and (0+ / 0-)

            have cold water in place of cold pop, which I used to drink an awful lot of, and not drink only occasionally.

            I tried that Pur faucet filter before, but it always leaked a bit and I had trouble getting it off and on the faucet, plus it got banged about when trying to get water into larger pots at the sink.

            So I'll stick with the Brita pitcher, thank you, though.


            "I like paying taxes...with them, I buy Civilization"

            by Angie in WA State on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 05:32:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I'm a big fan of tap water (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bear83, JPax, Angie in WA State

          I drink lots of tap water, and I can't pass a drinking fountain without using it, especially in the summer.

          The tap water is still pretty good in NYC.  Hope they never start fracking upstate.

          They tell me I'm pretty amusing from time to time working with 140 characters or less.

          by CharlieHipHop on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 08:12:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's the big problem of fracking in our region (0+ / 0-)

            Yes, we are one area that is unlikely to loose too much rainfall, and we have these giant pre-existing storage units called aquifers, lakes and ground water, but we are thinking about blowing all that so some gas companies can squeeze out their last profits!

      •  Agriculture and industry are the culprits. (8+ / 0-)

        Potability is not really the issue. It's the large scale usage that is the problem.

        Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

        by k9disc on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:30:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  if your tap water tastes yicky, get a tap filter! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Bluefin

        or a filter pitcher for drinking water, or a whole-house filter system. vastly le$$ in the long run! and no terrible plastic water bottles to get rid of!!!

        the Hazardous Waste section at our local Garbage Intake facility now takes used filters for proper disposal, AFAIK.

        "real" work : a job where you wash your hands BEFORE you use the bathroom...

        by chimene on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:32:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Why not solar? The sun yields about a kilowatt (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Demi Moaned, blueoasis, ivote2004, Bluefin

        per square meter to Earth's surface, it does not require very complex technology to boil water with solar energy.

        Really don't mind if you sit this one out. My words but a whisper -- your deafness a SHOUT. I may make you feel but I can't make you think..Jethro Tull

        by RMForbes on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:38:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Or Evaporate (0+ / 0-)

          It doesn't have to boil, just vaporize. Or freeze - 55F ocean water is much closer to 31F ice than to 212F steam.

          "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

          by DocGonzo on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 08:38:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If I were to design such a system (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DocGonzo

            I would pump the ocean water into the condenser first to cool the vapor into liquid water before it went into the solar boiler. That way the energy required to evaporate the water will be reduced because the water would first gain some heat in the condenser.

            Really don't mind if you sit this one out. My words but a whisper -- your deafness a SHOUT. I may make you feel but I can't make you think..Jethro Tull

            by RMForbes on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 08:52:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  i think we may be at risk of running out of tap (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        skohayes, blueoasis

        water. bottled has always amused me since the cartoon of the store clerk filling up bottles from a hose in the back room.

      •  The ugly cold north is probably OK on water, (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blueoasis, 207wickedgood, catwho

        when not affirmatively flooding, but it's all those Red and retirement states that have the issue.  The Southwest has in relatively recent geological times, Twelfth and Thirteenth Centuries,  times had humongous long lasting droughts so it may be that a lot of AZ and a few other places will be hitting the road. Either that or CA will start buying water from the Rockies elsewhere and the NW the way they now buy electricity from Bonneville.

      •  combine the water with coolant process! save money (0+ / 0-)

        and get radioactive at the same time!

        This is a list of 76 universities for Rush Limbaugh that endorse global warming denial, racism, sexism, and GOP lies by broadcasting sports on over 170 Limbaugh radio stations.

        by certainot on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 05:07:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Bottled water is a ridiculous (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Paul Ferguson, Bluefin, Back In Blue

        Waste of money and resources and should be stopped, the same as plastic grocery bags.

        I'm talking fashionable/convenient small bottles, not water storage. Water filters and a canteens already, please!

      •  Now that... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BlackSheep1

          ...makes sense!

        Compost for a greener planet.............got piles?

        by Hoghead99 on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 06:54:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you can get surplus canteens cheap (0+ / 0-)

          BPA free 'cause they're metal. You might need new washers for the caps, tho.

          LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

          by BlackSheep1 on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 10:10:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  not necessarily bpa free cause they're metal (0+ / 0-)

            canned food is suspect because it is lined with bpa

            As Israeli bombs fall now, I can only think of and honor the motto of the besieged Jews of the Warsaw ghetto "To live and die in dignity" -- Mohammed Suliman @imPalestine

            by skywriter on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 02:43:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, come on... (0+ / 0-)

        You can distill water with a clear plastic sheet, a tin can, a pebble and a hole in the ground, if the sun is shining.

        I figure that would scale up to whatever volume you need.

        "The problems of incompetent, corrupt, corporatist government are incompetence, corruption and corporatism, not government." Jerome a Paris

        by Orinoco on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 07:00:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Where do you get the water? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kurt, Orinoco

          You have to have water to distill, and if it's dirty enough to need distilling, what do you do with the waste at scale?

          They tell me I'm pretty amusing from time to time working with 140 characters or less.

          by CharlieHipHop on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 08:15:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  you dig the hole in the ground. You weight (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Orinoco

            the sheet down over the hole to cover. You put the cup / can under the middle of the sheet. You put the pebble atop the sheet directly over the cup / can.

            You go away.

            The sun draws water from the hole. The plastic traps it. Gravity makes it run down under the pebble and drip into the cup.

            It's the same technology as a water well, only you can dig it with a spoon or a beer can instead of a drilling rig, and the plastic sheet takes the place of the pump.

            LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

            by BlackSheep1 on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 10:12:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  That's the problem - Scale (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Orinoco, catwho

          You scale that up and you're covering miles and miles of land with plastic sheeting.

          Although, when it comes to agriculture, it's the plants that are transpiring it anyway, so cover the plants, and you'll recapture a lot of that water.

          -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

          by JPax on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 10:31:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Obviously you don't scale up with plastic sheets (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            PeteZerria

            and pebbles.

            You'd pipe brackish or salt water in from somewhere, and use glass instead of plastic sheets to cover the evaporators.

            The plastic sheet and pebble technology is desert survival stuff. But you can do something similar to get a distilled water supply off grid, if you're somewhere the wells are brackish or otherwise contaminated, and scaling up for a small town wouldn't take miles and miles of land, although it would take some.

            My point was you don't need nuclear power or a huge fossil fuel fired boiler to do the evaporation. And it doesn't have to be massive industrial scale.

            My bet is when people's drilled wells start spewing up fracking chemicals, you're going to see a lot of these mini-solar stills springing up in back yards.

            "The problems of incompetent, corrupt, corporatist government are incompetence, corruption and corporatism, not government." Jerome a Paris

            by Orinoco on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 01:11:09 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  It isn't (6+ / 0-)

      Takes a lot of energy

      And leaves a lot of brine.

      San Diego is building one, it is expected to bring water to 300,000 residents.  They plan to dump the brine back into the ocean.

      I am not so sure that's a good idea.

      "The NRA, the club you join when the military won't have you" - bumpersticker

      by dawgflyer13 on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 02:24:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If we could use the leftover salt for aqueous s... (3+ / 0-)

        If we could use the leftover salt for aqueous sodium batteries, that would be awesome.

        •  YES, Sodium-Ion Batteries! (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kurt, BlackSheep1
          http://en.wikipedia.org/...
              Sodium-ion batteries are a type of reusable battery that uses sodium-ions as its charge carriers. This type of battery is in a developmental phase, but may prove to be a cheaper way to store energy than commonly used lithium-ion batteries.[1] (As of 2014, one company, Aquion Energy, has a commercially available sodium-ion battery with cost/kWh capacity similar to a nickel-iron battery.) Unlike sodium-sulfur batteries,[2] sodium ion batteries can be made portable and can function at room temperature (approx. 25˚C).
              (lots of details, and citations, at URL)
          And.... Saltwater batteries have been a known and proven technology since 200 years ago.

          Now... its time for some modernization... refinement.... innovation... R&D:

          Energetic Aqueous Rechargeable Sodium-Ion Battery Based on Na2CuFe(CN)6–NaTi2(PO4)3 Intercalation Chemistry
              http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/...
          Towards High Power High Energy Aqueous Sodium-Ion Batteries: The NaTi2(PO4)3/Na0.44MnO2 System
              http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/...
          New-concept Batteries Based on Aqueous Li+/Na+ Mixed-ion Electrolytes
              http://www.nature.com/...
              Received 19 March 2013 Accepted 20 May 2013 Published 05 June 2013

              Rechargeable batteries made from low-cost and abundant materials operating in safe aqueous electrolytes are attractive for large-scale energy storage. Sodium-ion battery is considered as a potential alternative of current lithium-ion battery. As sodium-intercalation compounds suitable for aqueous batteries are limited, we adopt a novel concept of Li+/Na+ mixed-ion electrolytes to create two batteries (LiMn2O4/Na0.22MnO2 and Na0.44MnO2/TiP2O7), which relies on two electrochemical processes. One involves Li+ insertion/extraction reaction, and the other mainly relates to Na+ extraction/insertion reaction. Two batteries exhibit specific energy of 17 Wh/kg and 25 Wh/kg based on the total weight of active electrode materials, respectively. As well, aqueous LiMn2O4/Na0.22MnO2 battery is capable of separating Li+ and Na+ due to its specific mechanism unlike the traditional “rocking-chair” lithium-ion batteries. Hence, the Li+/Na+ mixed-ion batteries offer promising applications in energy storage and Li+/Na+ separation.

             
          A low-cost and environmentally benign aqueous rechargeable sodium-ion battery based on NaTi2(PO4)3–Na2NiFe(CN)6 intercalation chemistry
              http://www.sciencedirect.com/...
              Highlights
              • An aqueous rechargable Na-ion battery is developed.
              • Na2NiFe(CN)6 and NaTi2(PO4)3 serve as cathode and anode, respectively.
              • A Na2SO4 aqueous solution serves as the electrolyte.
              • An output of ∼1.27 V and 42.5 Wh/kg is achieved.
              • This battery is safe, low cost and environmentally friendly.

          #3: ensure network neutrality; #2: ensure electoral integrity; #1: ensure ecosystemic sustainability.

          by ivote2004 on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 07:11:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  The ocean is surprisingly large (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        historys mysteries, codairem

        The dilution factor is not infinite but it's pretty gigantic. The Pacific won't notice, I promise.

        Voting is the means by which the public is distracted from the realities of power and its exercise.

        by Anne Elk on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 02:57:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Ocean dumping of brine isn't a big deal. (4+ / 0-)

        The dilution happens pretty readily.

        Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

        by bigtimecynic on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:20:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JPax, yet another liberal

          You're taking brine that would be gradually distributed over thousands of square miles of ocean and dumping it all in one place.  It's going to have an effect on the marine ecosystem.  Sorry.  I'd like to think that it won't, but it will.  That brine will kill a lot of living things.

          At this point I really don't care that humans are going to become extinct because we deserve it.  We're stupid, gluttonous, greedy creatures who have squandered the gifts nature gave us.  We pretty much deserve to die, not that I don't feel sorry for the (now) children who are inheriting this mess.

          What bugs me is that we're going to potentially take down the entire planet.  It's an incredibly beautiful miracle, this planet.  It doesn't deserve this fate.  Oh well.

          They tell me I'm pretty amusing from time to time working with 140 characters or less.

          by CharlieHipHop on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 08:24:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Sell the salt. (0+ / 0-)

        And use nucular energy.

        Best Scientist Ever Predicts Bacon Will Be Element 119 On The Periodic Table

        by dov12348 on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 05:54:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Here's the thing... (18+ / 0-)

      ...you're proposing something that could solve our problem.  This is the United States of America.  We no longer solve problems.  Instead, we look for ways to make money off of them.  If we can't do that, then we ignore them.

      So until the Koch brothers own a controlling interest in a Super Dooper Desalinator, fuhgeddaboutit.

      When you punch enough holes through steerage, the first-class cabins sink with the rest of the ship.

      by Roddy McCorley on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:19:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yep. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NoMoreLies, Bluefin

        If a Halliburton or a private equity firm can't monetize it, kick the can down the road.

        Tar sands, fracking and deep water drilling are expensive. Crude oil price exceeded $100/bbl in 2008 where it still hovers. NH₃ based fertilizer feeds an estimated ⅓ of the world with the Haber-Bosch process using natural gas as a feedstock.

        by FrY10cK on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 04:55:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  They could make money by selling the (0+ / 0-)

        salt from the brine.  Plus California makes money because there's more income where there's bigger and more water bills.

        Best Scientist Ever Predicts Bacon Will Be Element 119 On The Periodic Table

        by dov12348 on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 05:53:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yes. (0+ / 0-)

      Takes a lot of money for the membranes, and a lot of power for the pumps.  About the only thing you can say about reverse osmosis is it's cheaper than distillation.

      And solar distillation for that amount of water would require many square miles of evaporation ponds. The cost might run into a fraction of a trillion dollars.

    •  It is a very energy intensive process (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dov12348

      and the resulting brine is considered a pollutant in CA.

      Now with their party out of power, the GOP is flailing more then Mitch McConnell's jowls on a playground swing. S. Colbert

      by christomento on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 04:44:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Israel does it. Gulf Arab states do it. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dov12348

      Lost Tom. Lost Charlie. Can't read (Paul Newman, 'The Left Handed Gun')

      by richardvjohnson on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 05:05:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's expensive (0+ / 0-)

      Cruising sailboats routinely incorporate desalination.  Googling "Municipal Scale Desalination" produces some interesting initiatives, like the one in Alamogordo, NM.  Desalinization is not an unusual procedure, not cutting edge by any means.  The impediment is cost; it's expensive, but expense is of course relative depending on need.  Current trends suggest that some parts of our nation will seek new sources of potable water because they are going to overtax local supplies.  I think we can anticipate both a more aggressive search and a more aggressive search for ways to get someone else to pay for it.

      •  Would nuclear energy make it cheaper? (0+ / 0-)

        Best Scientist Ever Predicts Bacon Will Be Element 119 On The Periodic Table

        by dov12348 on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 05:50:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  US nuclear plants have a bad economic record (0+ / 0-)

          I doubt it.  And my skepticism is borne of some experience with the nuclear industry - specifically bidding against Seabrook II's power as ordered by the Maine PUC.  I think it might be interesting to explore something on the waste heat side of the operation.  However, that Seabrook II power was projected to run around 17 cents per KWH, in the mid 80's.  The track record of such projections are that they are low.  There would have to be an enormous revenue enhancement by producing potable water too in order for the plant to be economical overall.  A far bigger income bump than I suspect is practical.  But, I would be interested in the economic argument.

    •  Desal plant should be online in 2016 (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kurt, dov12348

      ...in Carlsbad (San Diego suburb.)  They are currently building the connector to the local water system, if I understand correctly.

      It does take a lot of energy. And there's the brine to deal with--you don't want to just dump it right off the coast and devastate the local coastal ecosystem.  

      One of the more interesting things is a possibility for using the minerals to create building materials--kind of a super-shell brick.  TED had a fascinating talk:

      http://www.ted.com/...

      Given that the production of cement & concrete generates a large percentage of global warming, it could be useful on more than one front.

      •  Do It At Sea (0+ / 0-)

        Why pump the seawater onto land just to pump so much of it back as brine? Why not desalinate it at sea, and pump only the potable water ashore?

        There's a vast unobstructed area for solar arrays and diffuse brine production just offshore.

        BTW, California technology/industry solving this problem could be a huge export that would solve one of the biggest problems that other technology/industry has been creating worldwide the past century or so.

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

        by DocGonzo on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 08:44:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Floating platform or fixed to the sea floor? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          catwho

          If floating and moving, you have to worry about connections to the outflow pipes, as well as the transfer pipe which might leak and let in seawater. If affixed to the sea floor, you have to worry about seismicity and sea level rise.

          -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

          by JPax on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 10:40:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Engineering (0+ / 0-)

            I'm sure there are many engineering challenges for platforms of the scale necessary. The ocean is a very dynamic environment. There will be a lot of maintenance and ongoing construction in unprecedented conditions. A lot of replacement costs and new techniques, possibly new materials. Engineers and probably scientists will have a lot of work figuring out many details, starting with the kind of platform issues you raise.

            But there's a lot of energy out there, and of course the precious H2O. And, at this scale, a lot of valuable elements dissolved that could be "mined" (or is it "farmed"? New cultures await...)

            Solar/wind/wave platforms might be necessary for desalination imminently. Which could be the mother of the inventions for distributing around the world. Everyone eventually catches up with California.

            "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

            by DocGonzo on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 07:35:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  LOL... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DocGonzo

              ...indeed they do, my friend, indeed they do!

              The above mentioned engineering challenges are fairly stated, as is your general principle that overcoming them will be a huge economic as well as environmental boon.

              Still, we have to do what we can, with what we have, now.  And the Carlsbad plant is really on the beach, so it's not like that seawater is getting moved seriously inland for treatment.

              I do wish they had incorporated the ideas about using the brine for minerals material.

    •  Opens up other cans of worms (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dov12348

      First of all, there are already 300 desalination plants operating in the United States.  120 in Florida alone.  Source

      What do you do with the "salt" part of the water?  You can't ethically just dump it back in the ocean where it screws up the delicate marine ecosystem, and you can't really do anything with it on land where it represents a threat to crops and other freshwater supplies.

      Even if you could figure out what to do with all that brine, there are consequences to the marine environment.

      http://www.paua.de/...

      They tell me I'm pretty amusing from time to time working with 140 characters or less.

      by CharlieHipHop on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 08:03:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Don't worry (0+ / 0-)

      Anti-science T-bagger scientists educated in Creationist charter schools will fix it.

    •  People are doing it (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dov12348

      http://www.sfgate.com/...

      The next step is scaling up production and building infrastructure to get the water where it is needed.

    •  The Wiki on Desalinization is pretty interesting (0+ / 0-)

      I've thought for quite awhile that it makes no sense for SoCal to help suck the Colorado River dry when it is a desert right next to the ocean.  Plenty of low-cost thermal or solar energy, and an inexhaustible supply of water.

      Never mind the fact that the USA uses twice as  much water per capita as any other place on earth (according to the wiki).

      Partly because we flush our toilets with the same water we drink.  I was working in London almost  years ago, and there were lots of places with three faucets:  hot, cold, and non-potable.

      Water is another resource we have taken for granted as a society for years.  I try to be real careful about my water use, not because it's scarce where I live, but because it's expensive!  Mostly because all the water going through my meter is used to add to my sewer bill.

      "Slavery is the legal fiction that a person is property. Corporate personhood is the legal fiction that property is a person." David Korten, When Corporations Rule the World

      by Delta Overdue on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 11:42:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Ocean water? You MUST be joking! (0+ / 0-)

      With our species' ever growing use of water, what will happen when, at some point in the future, we use up even the seas?

      We need to lower our use of planetary water, especially where industry is concerned. This is a much more important, and immediate issue than global warming, though global warming impacts the water on earth. It is important to be aware that this needs to be addressed as a planetary, not territorial, concern.

       

    •  Nestle? (0+ / 0-)

      Why aren't they shutting them down as a matter of a national emergency?

    •  This is an Environmental Problem. (0+ / 0-)

      People have tried to get desalinization plants approved in Costal Southern California, but those pesky environmentalist always fight it. And they always win.

      Several years ago (5-6?) this was talked about in Huntington Beach, CA. Complete with Tidal Power electrical generation. The Tidal Power was hated as much as Desalinization by the Tree Huggers. Dana Rohrabacher (R) represents Huntington Beach, but the Environmentalists stillprevailed.

    •  Water recycling plants and much more serious... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Odysseus

      ...conservation efforts all over the country are needed NOW.
      The small Southwestern town I live in already has at least three water recycling plants however in my travels through out this area I see many suburbanites still wasting water like there was no tomorrow.
      And I saw water being wasted in the form of unattended lawn sprinklers spilling water into the streets in the parts of town where supposedly better educated people live. Not a good sign.

    •  Israel seems to be the world leader (0+ / 0-)

      in desalinization:

      Roughly 35 percent of Israel's drinking-quality water now comes from desalination. That number is expected to exceed 40 percent by next year and hit 70 percent in 2050.
      http://www.haaretz.com/...
    •  It requires energy (0+ / 0-)

      and energy requires water and water requires energy. You do the math.

    •  Why is fantasy our response to a problem? (0+ / 0-)

      The most disturbing thing about this blog is how quickly people start fantasizing about science fiction solutions to water problems. For thousands of years humans have dealt with water shortages through conservation and rain water capture. Now we could even be thinking about ameliorating climate change and prioritizing water use. Instead, we get in an argument about which is worse, dying of thirst or thyroid cancer caused by nuclear contamination. We already have an energy crisis, so we are going to solve a water crisis through massive expenditures of energy?

  •  Life as we know it (44+ / 0-)

    It's clear that so much of life that we have taken for granted is going to be lost. Irrevocably.

    And I can't escape the feeling that it's happening faster than we thought. It's going to be a bumpy century.

    "The smartest man in the room is not always right." -Richard Holbrooke

    by Demi Moaned on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 01:29:37 PM PDT

    •  Modern version of Industrial Revolution (19+ / 0-)

      The Industrial Revolution caused tremendous upheaval. Even though it was at the base a change in manufacturing/production/etc., the political ramifications were immense. The 19th century was quite "bumpy" because of it.

      One measure of the scale: in 1800, in North America and much of Europe, it took approximately a week's worth of wages or actual work to buy/produce a yard of fabric for the average person. In 1840, it took an hour's worth of work for a yard of fabric. (Source: an excellent exhibit on textile at Old Sturbridge Village, and since seen in various reading). It's stayed at about an hour's worth of work since then, give or take a bit. If you go into a JoAnn Fabrics, most fabrics will cost $5 to $20 per yard ~ still approximately an hour's worth of work (at least post-tax) for the average American.

      The reduction in time needed to clothe a family let women do other things ~ including getting involved in the women's rights and abolition movement on a larger scale and ~ on a smaller, more personal scale ~ allowed girls to stay in school longer and mothers to spend more time with their children and doing other household chores, and so on.

      It's also why a house built in 2014 will have much bigger closets than one built in 1814 ;-)

      My (considered but not necessarily expert opinion): we are facing another such dramatic change. Between changes in technology and climate, this may even be bigger than the Industrial Revolution. Water issues are just one part (although a hugely important) part of these changes.

      The worst sin - perhaps the only sin - passion can commit, is to be joyless. (Gaudy Night, Dorothy L. Sayers)

      by mayim on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 02:27:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What century HASN'T been bumpy? (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mayim, 4Freedom, skymutt, skohayes, DocGonzo

        This isn't freedom. This is fear - Captain America

        by Ellid on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:02:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  True ;-) (12+ / 0-)

          But... think of it this way....at least when dealing with the Americas and much of Europe.

          If someone living in the year 1650 (or even, to a great extent, 650...) was transported to 1750 ~ he/she would basically recognize most things about the world and how it worked, both politically and technologically.

          But put someone from 1750 into 1850 ~ no longer true. Telegraph and railroad on the technology side, while on the political side there are significant changes. The gap from 1850 to 1950 is even wider.

          And the gap from 1950 to 2050 will be much, much greater ~ if civilization survives....

          A friend of mine, in an effort to get her high school students to step outside their own lives, has them write an essay explaining the frustration of a slow Internet connection to Thomas Jefferson. She used Abraham Lincoln the first time she gave the assignment but realized that the telegraph was a conceptual leap that was too easy to build on for what she wanted to accomplish with the assignment.

          It's easy to see and describe the technological changes, but the political fall-out from those changes and from climate change will be dramatic, as well. Water is a basic human need ~ changes in availability are going to drive lots of bumpiness over the next few decades.

          The worst sin - perhaps the only sin - passion can commit, is to be joyless. (Gaudy Night, Dorothy L. Sayers)

          by mayim on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:27:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If you guys seriously (0+ / 0-)

            think... ah heck with it, this is just normal change then you are going to have a horrible surprise coming.

            There probably isn't any point in me saying this, but I'll say it any way.

            Our agriculture is going to take a massive hit, and starvation will become an issue in a few decades. Yes... us fat, happy Americans will potentially face starvation.

            I'm not even saying anything unusual in this. Despite the fact that people think they need to argue with it. ALL of the scientific research shows severe food loss coming up and massive droughts hitting our most prosperous farm land, eventually leading to dustbowl conditions or worse.

            You guys are progressives... and the truth is even most of you tune out these reports. It's not like you say they are wrong, the reality just doesn't hit you.

            We are going to go off a cliff soon, and it won't be pretty. And the reason is that nobody can be convinced to take this seriously. Not even the people on this site. If people simply took the reports seriously and acted accordingly, there is a lot we could do.

            But we aren't.

            Ignorance more frequently begets confidence then knowledge. Charles Darwin

            by martianexpatriate on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 08:49:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I think you're being optimistic (14+ / 0-)

        Yes, the Industrial Revolution caused a large amount of disruption. But the macro picture was a large-scale enrichment of society as a whole, even if the distribution of gains was highly unequal.

        But climate change seems almost certain to unleash many large-scale natural disasters. It seems highly likely that the cumulative effect of these disasters will be impoverishing. Impoverishment easily slides into a vicious circle where the effects cause yet further impoverishment. In the extreme case it can lead to a collapse of society. We already have a distressing number of nascent failed states. What happens when failed states are the rule rather than the exception?

        "The smartest man in the room is not always right." -Richard Holbrooke

        by Demi Moaned on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:22:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Likely.... (4+ / 0-)

          Very likely. I'm definitely an optimist ;-)

          Unfortunately, I think you are right about the trend toward impoverishment rather than enrichment. I'd like to think that human ingenuity will figure out ways to not have that happen, but.... the cynic in me says the profit in dealing with it is less than the profit maintaining in the status quo, at least for the people who have the money to invest in potential change :-( so that ~ combined with denial not only being a river in Egypt.... ugh!

          Yeah, collapse of society is quite possible; the scale is definitely change on the order of the Industrial Revolution to societal collapse ~ but too much of the world still thinks that there's more to the scale closer to status quo :-(

          The worst sin - perhaps the only sin - passion can commit, is to be joyless. (Gaudy Night, Dorothy L. Sayers)

          by mayim on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:36:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't think the problems are beyond ... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            cai, mayim

            human ingenuity. But ingenuity takes time and that's what seems to be running out.

            I have a hard time seeing who really benefits from a collapse. Sure some super-wealthy people may be able to take refuge in their compounds in Paraguay or wherever it is their building them. But even if they do survive for a time in some degree of comfort, how is that an improvement over living at the top in a highly prosperous society?

            "The smartest man in the room is not always right." -Richard Holbrooke

            by Demi Moaned on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:45:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Honestly (0+ / 0-)

              I think its simplyt hat nobody can bring themselves to believe it. Even people who listen and nod their heads just sort of tune it all out, then go home and grab a beer and turn up the air conditioner.

              Our kids will hate us for that.

              Ignorance more frequently begets confidence then knowledge. Charles Darwin

              by martianexpatriate on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 08:51:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  On the downside, peasants could make their (12+ / 0-)

        own shoes, with hide from their own animals, in about half a day.  To earn enough money to buy shoes, they'd have to work for weeks in a factory in the city.

        In England, many small farmers had no interest in leaving their villages, where they could grow or make or trade for all they needed, and where they could schedule their own work, to go to dim, dirty, dangerous factories where they could be worked 12-16 hours a day for a pittance.

        Thus, the enclosure movement.  Make the common lands in the villages private, so that people could no longer graze their animals there.  Some of the early industrialists/capitalists were quite frank about the need to drive the peasants from their "lazy" lifestyles to make them work in the factories.

        © cai Visit 350.org to join the fight against global warming.

        by cai on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:43:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It was days, not weeks, but here you go: (17+ / 0-)

          Everyone knows the lower classes must be kept poor or they will never be industrious:

          Yep, despite what you might have learned, the transition to a capitalistic society did not happen naturally or smoothly. See, English peasants didn’t want to give up their rural communal lifestyle, leave their land and go work for below-subsistence wages in shitty, dangerous factories being set up by a new, rich class of landowning capitalists. And for good reason, too. Using Adam Smith’s own estimates of factory wages being paid at the time in Scotland, a factory-peasant would have to toil for more than three days to buy a pair of commercially produced shoes. Or they could make their own traditional brogues using their own leather in a matter of hours, and spend the rest of the time getting wasted on ale. It’s really not much of a choice, is it?

          ...

          Perelman outlines the many different policies through which peasants were forced off the land—from the enactment of so-called Game Laws that prohibited peasants from hunting, to the destruction of the peasant productivity by fencing the commons into smaller lots—but by far the most interesting parts of the book are where you get to read Adam Smith’s proto-capitalist colleagues complaining and whining about how peasants are too independent and comfortable to be properly exploited, and trying to figure out how to force them to accept a life of wage slavery.

          ...

          If having a full belly and productive land was the problem, then the solution to whipping these lazy bums into shape was obvious: kick ‘em off the land and let em starve.

          © cai Visit 350.org to join the fight against global warming.

          by cai on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:51:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  1814 house probably doesn't have ANY (13+ / 0-)

        closets, beyond the pantry off the kitchen! even our 1950's house has tiny closets! We hardly had a linen closet (sheets, quilts, blankets, towels) before we built one in "found" space (after we had to take the old oil furnace chimney out).

        there's a reason unmarried women used to be called "spinsters" -- because they could devote ALL their time to cloth production to clothe the rest of the family.

        It's why you see all those cute photos of ethnic folks who aren't yet industrialized, why all the women, all the kids old enough for the hand-eye coordination, all the old folks of both genders.... ARE SPINNING when they're not doing some other WORK with their hands! drop spindles you can use while walking, moving the flocks, going to market, sitting and watching the children who are too little for work yet (that's a major grandparent job...)

        I remember my mother, b 1922, telling me that HER mother had 2 dresses when she was little, and 6 pinafore aprons. She changed her pinafore every day, but wore the same dress under it. That would have been around the 1890's. And I just saw some Depression Family photos here on Kos -- several of them show children in clothing made from printed flour sacks - quite nice clothing, actually.

        PS about JoAnn's fabrics still being about an hour's worth of work per yard? Not unless you can find JUST the right stuff! 95% of modern cloth is nowhere near the quality of what was being sold in 1840. The weave isn't as tight, it won't last as long, etc. IF you can find European suiting weight wools, which approximate the quality of the "olden days", those cost over $100/yard, easily. Medieval wills regularly passed on garments, sometimes to more than one generation!

        "real" work : a job where you wash your hands BEFORE you use the bathroom...

        by chimene on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 04:04:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I was raised part by my sis (7+ / 0-)

          and part by my grandparents. They were born in the late 1800s and went thru the depression. I had dresses made out of flour sack material, I remember them well.

          My grandma made her own soap, I have her recipe. She had a wringer washer and I remember helping her with it (and ironing sheets!)

          I also had the misfortune of learning what the being "on the rag" can be literal.

          Some humans ain't human some people ain't kind. They lie through their teeth with their head up their behind. You open up their hearts and here's what you'll find - Some humans ain't human some people ain't kind. John Prine

          by high uintas on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 04:50:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yup ;-) (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          terabytes, Orinoco, chimene, Ice Blue

          Spinning and other parts of the fabric making process were constants for all but the wealthiest women.

          Most modern people are surprised to hear I learned to knit at 5 or 6 years old ~ but that would have been normal for my Scottish ancestors.

          Oh, true about the JoAnn's fabric ~ but it's a good illustration (I think) for people who have never questioned modern consumerist society and its values. Less good in the fiber community or among people with any real knowledge of history like you find here at DKos ~ but for low-information voters and such, I've used it to good effect as a good place to start poking at their assumptions.

          The worst sin - perhaps the only sin - passion can commit, is to be joyless. (Gaudy Night, Dorothy L. Sayers)

          by mayim on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 04:54:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And wealthy women spent their time (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mayim, chimene, BlackSheep1

            embroidering their clothing, to show they had the excess time they didn't have to spend spinning and weaving the plain stuff.

            "The problems of incompetent, corrupt, corporatist government are incompetence, corruption and corporatism, not government." Jerome a Paris

            by Orinoco on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 07:10:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  A lot of women made workday clothing (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Orinoco

          out of flour sacking in the late 1800s and early 20th century. Waste not, want not. Once mills figured that out they began selling flour in bags of printed calico.

          It is still possible to find quality fabrics, such as Guatemalan hand wovens or Harris tweeds, by the yard but they will cost you. And you certainly will not find them in JoAnn, Walmart or any other big box store.

          You forgot about the cost of lace when it was hand tatted rather than machine made.

          “You think You're frightening me with Your hell, don't You? You think Your hell is worse than mine.” --Dorothy Parker

          by Ice Blue on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 09:20:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I wore feedsacks in the 1960s & 70s (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Orinoco

          chicken feed sacks, carefully washed (hot water and bleach; chicken feed has a very distinctive smell) and taken apart. My mom made everything from mattress covers to pillow slips and pullover shirts out of 'em.

          LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

          by BlackSheep1 on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 10:17:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Things will be different, but I am not sure worse. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FrY10cK, NoMoreLies, mayim, mightymouse

      The use of energy at the rates we have done has allowed every man and woman to become an island unto himself, and ignore the cooperative nature of human economies. We will rediscover each other and our assets and talents when resources must be shared, again, as they used to be.

      This is not a tragic development. It is different than now, but we wont be flying around in jets or cruising to the store for ice cream any more. We will have to live closer to our jobs, if we even have one, and we willl have to pay attention to how much we use, collectively.

      I think many of our modern complaints are a result of the intense Me-Firstism and resulting isolation of cheap energy to do things for us. I am not worried about adapting to the future.

      Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

      by OregonOak on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 04:07:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's the spirit! (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FrY10cK, mayim, JPax

        But forgive me if it sounds naive.

        It sounds like saying our jets will just have to operate at lower speeds. But at lower speeds they just don't fly. There are huge population centers in our country that are basically uninhabitable without the full brunt of modern technology. What happens to all those people? It won't be pretty.

        "The smartest man in the room is not always right." -Richard Holbrooke

        by Demi Moaned on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 04:15:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Trains. High and Slow speed. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Demi Moaned, NoMoreLies

          Of course technology will be essential. But this time, lets wrap our mind around EFFICIENT and sustainable technology instead of the fastest, highest, most expensive forms we can think of.

          Jet travel is doomed, and I am sorry about that. I like to fly, but I have realized recently that it is the single most effective thing an individual can do to cut my earthly carbon footprint in half. No place is uninhabitable because you cannot fly. Well, may be a few places are, but we are so used to CONVENIENCE that we do not think of the obvious things we are going to have to do to save our planet's life support systems. Start with the biggest bang for the carbon buck. Dont fly.

          Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

          by OregonOak on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 04:27:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Phoenix, Palm Springs (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mayim, Orinoco, JPax

            I was (probably confusingly) using the analogy of an aircraft to your proposal that we should make do with less.

            Air travel per se does not make a place habitable. But production and transportation of food and water rely on huge amounts of resources.

            Even the San Francisco Bay Area where I live is not even close to self-sufficient for our population in terms of nearby food and water. I don't see how you get to scaling down consumption without massively scaling down population.

            "The smartest man in the room is not always right." -Richard Holbrooke

            by Demi Moaned on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 04:46:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You would have to scale down population (0+ / 0-)

              But farming would be more labor intensive, and some of the population would go back to the countryside to replace tractor plowing with basically large scale gardening.

              "The problems of incompetent, corrupt, corporatist government are incompetence, corruption and corporatism, not government." Jerome a Paris

              by Orinoco on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 07:14:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Actually. I believe the "biggest bang for your (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FrY10cK, Demi Moaned

            carbon buck" is to go veggie. Or at least stop eating large mammals and salt water fish.

            The water and energy required to raise the larger livestock is huge. And then you must also raise the food for the livestock (using land, energy and water that could be used for human food production). And the large livestock also makes lots of CO2 and methane gas. (I don't have the numbers to crunch to compare the amount of greenhouse gasses produced globally by cattle vs cars, but I'd be willing to bet the cattle emit more.)

            And our oceans have been radically over-fished, such that the catch size  (length) of our prey fish has noticeably shrunk even over the past 50 years. The lack of normal ocean fish populations has caused huge algae blooms off the coast of Africa (because there's no fish to eat it) and this in turn has caused methane to form (from the rotting algae) which has caused huge eruptions of methane from the ocean there. Also, as humankind has depleted many species of fish to the point where they are no longer fished (such as cod), we have turned to other target species of fish, and now those are also becoming endangered.

            And consumption of animal ingredients really isn't that healthy anyway. A Vegan diet is best for a low carbon footprint, healthy lifestyle, and ethics.

            (I haven't gone completely Vegan yet myself - I haven't been able to give up honey or cheese or the occasional ice cream - but I have switched primarily to sheep and goat cheeses instead of cow dairy, and try to eat sorbet instead of ice cream. But every once in a while I just gotta' have that chocolate-chip-mint Klondike bar in a bed of warmed Nutella! I'm sooooo bad!)  

            •  I'm in the same boat. (0+ / 0-)

              I cut beef out of my diet, and only rarely eat chicken. I mix a little in checken in with my brown rice to season it, and still occasionally eat an egg.

              I also find that I need to eat a little chocolate now and then, but I eat a lot healthier than I used to.

              Ignorance more frequently begets confidence then knowledge. Charles Darwin

              by martianexpatriate on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 09:03:14 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Another 2-3 months to go before rainy season (8+ / 0-)

    and if its late this year...oh, boy

    "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

    by gjohnsit on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 02:12:51 PM PDT

  •  Nestle again. We already don't buy Nestle (28+ / 0-)

    b/c of their promotion of formula in Africa decades ago. But shouldn't this be just plain illegal? Bottled water is obscene anyway, but bottling water in an extreme drought area has to be the most appalling waste of precious water I've ever heard of.

    •  A lot of people have forgotten Nestle and baby... (13+ / 0-)

      ...formula.

      Nestle helped cause the deaths of countless babies in order to make a profit. Nestle's management are monsters.

      Obama: Pro-Pentagon, pro-Wall Street, pro-drilling, pro-fracking, pro-KXL, pro-surveillance. And the only person he prosecuted for the U.S. torture program is the man who revealed it. Clinton: More of the same.

      by expatjourno on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 02:45:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No forgetting baby formula but Jen goes too far (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pixxer, expatjourno

        Nestle sucks but this water plant consumes the amount of water used by a few hundred homes in an area where millions live. It's a drop in a bucket according to Jen's source.

        The amount of water that comes out of Millard Canyon, Christensen said, is relatively small when considered alongside various other canyons and the San Gorgonio River. For that reason, he said, the bottling plant's impact on the area's water supplies is probably relatively small.

        Davis agreed, pointing out that his agency in 2012 recorded a total of 32,000 acre-feet of groundwater pumped in its entire area, from Calimesa to Cabazon. Compared to that, the estimated 750 acre-feet of water drawn from Millard Canyon represents roughly 2 percent. A single golf course can use more water.

        "It's literally peanuts. It's a drop in the ocean," Davis said. "You're talking about such a small amount of water that it's kind of ridiculous to fight over that. But people will fight over water no matter what."

        “Industry does everything they can and gets away with it almost all the time, whether it’s the coal industry, not the subject of this hearing, or water or whatever. They will cut corners, and they will get away with it. " Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D, WVa

        by FishOutofWater on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 06:03:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  2% Not a Drop in the Ocean (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          expatjourno

          If it's actually 2%, that's not peanuts. An extra 2% of water during a drought is significant. And 750 / 32000 is over 2.34% - which is 17% (more than 1 in 6) higher than 2%. And that's if the 750 acre-feet estimate is correct.

          If someone proposed a new golf course in the area now, it would almost certainly be prohibited because of the drought.

          I lived in California during the drought that ended in the mid 1990s after 7 years. "There's never enough to waste" was the motto. That's even more true when allowing a foreign corp to extract water for export during a far worse drought.

          "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

          by DocGonzo on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 08:53:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Stopping Nestle would be tantamount to (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blueoasis

      expropriation, and illegal under NAFTA law.

      Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

      by k9disc on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:38:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It would be the most obscene, but for (7+ / 0-)

      fracking, which pumps millions of gallons of water, contaminates it with carcinogens, radon, and unknown adulterants, makes it unusable, and, at best, stores it back in the ground where it can leak into your drinking water.

      © cai Visit 350.org to join the fight against global warming.

      by cai on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:54:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Apparently they have a lease (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cai, blueoasis, pixxer

      with the Morongo tribe. Here's an article about the situation: http://www.desertsun.com/...

  •  California needs to move quickly (8+ / 0-)

    to stop Nestle from doing this shit.

    Though I fear that's just -- pardon the metaphor -- a drop in the bucket.

    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

    by raptavio on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 02:44:47 PM PDT

  •  CAWater - and this will also piss ya off! (16+ / 0-)

    Property taxes could pay for $25 billion Delta tunnels without public vote

    Those tunnels won't cost 25 billion, more like 60 billion. All to send water to the Southern SJ Valley to grow nuts for export!

    Protest on 7/29 in Sacramento if you can make it.

    “No Delta Tunnels Rally” on the West Steps of the Capitol!

    if a habitat is flooded, the improvement for target fishes increases by an infinite percentage...because a habitat suitability index that is even a tiny fraction of 1 is still infinitely higher than zero, which is the suitability of dry land to fishes.

    by mrsgoo on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 02:48:32 PM PDT

    •  There was a guy on KPPC today talking about that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mrsgoo

      and how the water agencies believe that, given they got some provision in the 1930s before current tax law required voter passage, that WATER DISTRICTS like MWD etc. can tax at will... with no limit. EVER.

      Apparently, Howard Jarvis group is looking at it in terms of whether it is legal or not...

      This might be the only time I'm on the Jarvis side.

      The only hawk I like is the kind that has feathers. My birding blogs: http://thisskysings.wordpress.com/ and canyonbirds.net

      by cany on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 04:57:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  We still do not have (unless it's a secret) (6+ / 0-)

    a comprehensive water resource plan for California. We can no longer afford to have a balkanized system of various water authorities, lack of long-term conservation strategies, and few if any major desalination projects in this State. Global warming is going to make water shortages catastrophic and the State Government keeps treating this like a one-off event. That's why the $68 billion (and then some) high-speed rail project just appalls me. I would much rather spend money on water infrastructure. And even if you didn't spend the money on that, I would still spend it on expanding mass transit in LA and the Bay Area than on a train from LA to SF.

    Voting is the means by which the public is distracted from the realities of power and its exercise.

    by Anne Elk on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 02:52:56 PM PDT

  •  There's an awful lot of water being used (15+ / 0-)

    to grow hay for cattle in what is essentially the desert in southern Utah.

    What's more troubling, while westerners are conserving water in a historic drought
    On my recent visit to Bryce Canyon, it was kind of startling to see how much land is under active spray irrigation on the way there to grow hay - while the land right next to it that wasn't irrigated was little ore than sand, rocks, and scrub brush.

    It sure seemed like a wasteful use of water to grow cattle feed.

    Election Day is Nov 4th, 2014 It's time for the Undo button on the 2010 Election.

    by bear83 on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:07:24 PM PDT

    •  Water use and CO2 production; tied at the hip. (9+ / 0-)

      It seems that reducing beef consumption would save water AND reduce greenhouse gas emissions. One of these days I really need to get around to kicking the beef habit.

      Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

      by bigtimecynic on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:29:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Water, meat and C02 are all related (10+ / 0-)

        So one easy thing to do is take out meat for one day a week, and eventually two. Its a small sacrifice, healthier, and can reduce water consumption in ag areas by a significant amount. Cattle ranchers are already adapting to new crops and income sources, as beef has become a volatile market, and they will survive, probably better, with other methods.

        Power reduction is another big one. Coal plants, nuke plants and hydro plants use a ton of water, so reducing energy use saves money and water.

        These are things we should have a handle on in terms of data so we can see how we are doing. I have done many of them already, and so far, life is just as good as before. No change, except my bills are smaller.

        Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

        by OregonOak on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 04:13:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Beef 5x GHG, 11x Water, 28x Land as Other Meats (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        yet another liberal

        Research published this week by the (US) National Academy of Sciences showed that


        Compared to the other animal proteins, beef produces five times more heat-trapping gases connected to global warming per calorie, puts out six times as much nitrogen for water pollution, takes 11 times more water for irrigation and uses 28 times the land

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

        by DocGonzo on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 09:03:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  This is the new normal. (29+ / 0-)

    Get used to it, folks. I talk this over on a regular basis with a good friend who studies debris flows - that mixture of mud and water and rocks and trees and ash (after wildfires in the drainage area) that comes barreling down canyons in the southwest USA after heavy rain events. She has a lot of communication with forest management types, water resources types, climate specialists, emergency management types, etc.

    The verdict is in. This is a drought that has all indications of persisting for decades.

    It has happened before and driven sophisticated cultures to abandon the area, for example the "Anasazi". With the drought will come wildfires, lots and lots of wildfires, because there will just not be enough consistent rainfall to sustain growth. Every time it rains, the plants will grow quickly and then when more rainfall doesn't come they will die quickly and become fuel for more wildfires.

    Cheap water is what has fueled the growth of the American West, one of the largest desert areas in the world. When the West was first systematically explored in the 19th century, there were two types of reports that came back: 1) from geologists and experienced explorers, such as John Wesley Powell, which said the place was a desert and could never sustain large populations - the key word being "sustain"; and 2) land developers who reported that there was cheap land and plenty of water.

    The pact that divides up the flow of the Colorado River between the states that exist along its path was drawn up in 1922. Projections for growth in cities was based on the figures coming out of that conference. Unfortunately, later on it has been recognized that 1922 was right smack dab in the middle of the wettest period in the Southwest for the past couple of hundred years, at least.

    There are engineering marvels out here that boggle the mind: Lake Mead, Lake Powell, the Central Arizona Project canal that supplies water to Phoenix and Tucson from the Colorado River, 150-200 miles away, dams on practically every significant flow of water out of practically every mountain range in the Southwest.

    There are hundreds of thousands of wells that allow farmers to produce cotton, grains, produce and citrus using groundwater in the desert - water resources that were not considered significant in Powell's time.

    Nonetheless, he and other explorers were correct in their assessments for one simple reason: all the rivers and all the basins get their water from just one source: precipitation.

    And in the immortal words of Firesign Theatre:

    "Hey, hey, hey capitano, the rain, she is stopping to fall and the corn she is all dead."

    And that is how you go from "rich, verdant pasture land" to a "stinking desert".

    You see, the basins of groundwater out here are being sucked dry. Despite their depth of up to many thousands of feet, good usable water is only near the surface, down to about 600 feet, usually. As the wells go deeper, the water gets more salty.

    And there's the rub. If the rain is stopping to fall, the desert west is going to have to start desalinating water, a very seriously expensive solution. It took literally millions of years to fill those basins. They are not going to refill in our lifetimes.

    And that means no more cheap water. No more cheap water means that it will cost significantly more to live here which means the population growth will slow and when the population growth slows, people have a hard time paying for existing infrastructure and things like schools. And when you don't have good infrastructure and schools it is difficult to attract investment for business in a capitalist economy.

    All because "the rain she is stopping to fall...."

    There are only two types of Republicans: 1) racists; and 2) people who are willing to be associated with racists.

    by hillbrook green on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:08:43 PM PDT

  •  The fun fact that scares the hell out of me... (15+ / 0-)

    ...is not the record drought - which is scary enough - so much as the assertion by some researchers that the last century or so was abnormally wet in this region.  That means the entire southwestern corner of this country was built on an anomaly.  If that's true, I don't see a good outcome here.

    When you punch enough holes through steerage, the first-class cabins sink with the rest of the ship.

    by Roddy McCorley on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:22:32 PM PDT

  •  TONS of water is used in power plants (5+ / 0-)

    that convert water to steam to spin turbines (that includes gas, coal, nuclear, and concentrated solar plants).  As water shortages become more pronounced, we may see market factors tip even more towards wind and photovoltaics for power generation not just because of the CO2 benefits, but because of the water consumption benefits. That is to say, the normal day-to-day operation of wind and solar requires no water.

    Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

    by bigtimecynic on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:23:47 PM PDT

  •  Moved To Southern California In '84 From Northeast (7+ / 0-)

    Wrote back home that it would be a great place to live if it wasn't uninhabitable. After 30 years good chance I will be moving back over the next year or so. I thought I was only joking in that first letter.

  •  Groundwater is an endangered species. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mayim, cai, stagemom

    It's amazing to me that something as common as "groundwater" is going to go extinct out West.

    Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

    by k9disc on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:29:01 PM PDT

  •  The future is a combination of... (7+ / 0-)

    Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action.

    by Shockwave on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:29:58 PM PDT

  •  If I ever have to move from the PNW (6+ / 0-)

    ...going back to the Great Lakes area might not be a bad idea.

    Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

    by Linnaeus on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:41:28 PM PDT

  •  At NN14 I talked to a good guy from Texas...but (15+ / 0-)

    the pleasant conversation took a conflicting turn when he started to suggest water from the Great Lakes could ease the texas drought.

    Sorry...no. If it's water you need, move on up here! But we're not piping it anywhere.

    •  Logistics aside (9+ / 0-)

      I mean, that would be a mightly long pipeline.

      Besides that, there's also the little problem of another nation bordering the Great Lakes that might have something to say about diversions like that.

      Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

      by Linnaeus on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 04:01:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And the fact that every bit of Great Lakes water (11+ / 0-)

        is already allocated -- for tap water, industrial use, and, importantly, transportation.

        The Great Lakes comprise a huge shipping waterway.  You can't just drain that and send it off to Texas or Arizona.

        Let them stop fracking their own groundwater, for starters, and stop having lawns in desert.

        © cai Visit 350.org to join the fight against global warming.

        by cai on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 04:18:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  There's this natural ditch full of water passing (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GeoffT

        not too far from them. Sometimes, it even overflows. If Texas really need some DHMO, they can suck it from Bobby Jindal's backyard.

        -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

        by JPax on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 11:20:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Purely logistically (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JPax

          If you suck 120 billion gallons a day from Michigan-Huron, the St Clair River dries up, Michigan-Huron stagnates.  The Mississippi's flow rate is about three times that and it is much, much closer.

          (Texas' water use is about 15 billion gallons/day).

          Fake candidates nominated by the GOP for the recalls: 6 out of 7. Fake signatures on the recall petitions: 4 out of 1,860,283.

          by GeoffT on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 11:31:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  And they do. (0+ / 0-)

        Great Lakes Compact

        The Great Lakes-St. Lawrence River Basin Water Resources Compact is a legally binding interstate compact among the U.S. states of Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Minnesota, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. The compact details how the states manage the use of the Great Lakes Basin's water supply and builds on the 1985 Great Lakes Charter and its 2001 Annex. The compact is the means by which the states implement the governors' commitments under the Great Lakes-St. Lawrence River Basin Sustainable Water Resources Agreement that also includes the Premiers of Ontario and Quebec.

        -7.75 -4.67

        "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

        There are no Christians in foxholes.

        by Odysseus on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 08:40:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Water is going to be (5+ / 0-)

      a commodity like electricity, if these trends continue. From Australia to Detroit, its scam on.

      A true craftsman will meticulously construct the apparatus of his own demise.

      by onionjim on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 04:05:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The Northeast will have flooding (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      too many people

      We would be happy to send some floodwater to the West when that happens.

    •  dick armey talked about that too. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mayim, JPax

      When he was majority leader while flying over Lake Michigan, I'm given to understand.  Made a remark about how good that lake would look in texas.  Read that and a cold chill went up and down my spine.

      A learning experience is one of those things that says, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' Douglas Adams

      by dougymi on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 05:34:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  TX needs to Socialist Up & build desalination. (0+ / 0-)

      While expensive, as desalination becomes a necessity, it will benefit from invention.  

      California needs to build desal, too.  And in both cases, it's probably a good idea if the costs are partially borne at the federal level, because they are THAT necessary.

      But piping...  yeah, no.  As a Westerner in CO, I hope I never have to leave for Michigan, but I've already thought about it.  It would be a really really smart move re: water AND real estate prices.

      It's time to start letting sleeping dinosaurs lie, lest we join them in extinction by our consumption of them.

      by Leftcandid on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 05:47:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Seriously... (0+ / 0-)

    ...a Palm Desert real estate appraiser weighs in as  a source? Is it a bit obvious her comissions are at stake?

    Shameless promotion is allowed. HousecallsHomeServices.com

    by PlanetTreasures on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 04:49:22 PM PDT

  •  Solution to one problem. Ban sold bottled water. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    geebeebee

    In the United States, there is no reason to sell water that is freely available via tap unless said water is contaminated, in which case it can be bottled cheaply from another non-contaminated tap.

    The selling of water is a con game.  It should be ended.

    Convenience for travelers?  How about bring your own bottle?

  •  The bottled water thing (0+ / 0-)

    Is crazy. Watch the documentary Tapped and be prepared to be outraged.

  •  It's time we privatize water. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AmmoLady

    It's a need, not a right.  Let the invisible hand of the market decide who gets water and at what price.

    I know that sounds insane but it must be true because Nolan Finley an editorial writer for the Detroit News said just that last week (Netroots Nation week) in the News.  Detoit, as many of you know recently shut off water service to the financially embarrassed.

    Water is a need not a right was the headline.

    Nestle is also draining water from Michigan rivers.  For free.

    I think I am going to go down to the Huron river and start bottling me some water.  I could use the cash.  And all I have to pay for is the bottles.  On second thought I don't even need to pay for those.  They are free too.  Just pick them up from the side of the road.  Thanks Nestle for the business model.  Brilliant!

    There is an endless supply of white men, there has always been a limited number of Human Beings

    by ratprique on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 05:38:28 PM PDT

  •  Oh yeah, the Republicans are on this shortage (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FrY10cK

    situation big time.  End contraception.  Makes sense, eh?

    There is an endless supply of white men, there has always been a limited number of Human Beings

    by ratprique on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 05:47:14 PM PDT

  •  This sucks. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FrY10cK

    An acquaintance of mine, who has in many ways a pretty "green" lifestyle (no car, religious composting practices, etc.), says, "I undo all this positive benefit, because I fly frequently." Ouch. Afraid she's right. More people than not, well-intentioned through they may be, can't wean themselves from petrochemical addiction.

    This is the result.

    Thanks for the diary.

    Supple and turbulent, a ring of men/ Shall chant in orgy on a summer morn...

    by karmsy on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 05:53:22 PM PDT

  •  Also fracking. I haven't kept up on this (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    history first, Catte Nappe

    in California as well as I should, but fraking uses a lot of water, and should be restricted, if not banned, unless this drought ends.

  •  Air (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DocGonzo

    There's people who'd make us pay for the air we breathe, if only they could work out a way to do it.

    Mark Twain: It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.

    by Land of Enchantment on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 07:03:38 PM PDT

    •  They have, it's tax breaks for not pulluting (0+ / 0-)

      If you like your precious air, then you let the government pay them danegeld for taking the toxins out of their effluent. TANSTAAFL.

      -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

      by JPax on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 11:27:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  For those who are truly interested ............... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe, Brian1066

    desalinization can be expensive and produce brine wastes that may be difficult to dispose of, especially in SoCal where there are already salinity issues in groundwater.

    But there can be a much easier solution as evidenced by Orange County who started dealing with water issues much sooner.  They take tertiary treated wastewater, use it to recharge the groundwater and then pump and use the groundwater, accomplishing two goals: water reuse and groundwater recharge.  

    You can read more about it here.  http://www.gwrsystem.com/

    Imagine if most communities used this out of the box thinking and started solving their problems before you reach a crisis.

  •  3/4ths of the earth is water and we still can't (0+ / 0-)

    enough.  I just wonder about that fact all the time.

  •  People need to move. (0+ / 0-)

    Short of inventing some means of creating unlimited energy,  it simply isn't practical to have cities and farms in what is essentially the desert.

    We need to at least start getting to the carrot approach, since the stick doesn't seem likely to happen anytime soon, and use tax incentives or job creation initiatives, etc., to nudge people to move to the right areas.

    •  Much simpler/cheaper to reduce water use (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Catte Nappe

      dramatically without moving farms or cities.  Even in the comments above, folks are much too focused on supply rather than demand and efficiency.  While some areas have reasonable conservation efforts proceeding, there is much more scope available for demand reduction via efficiency rather than curtailment even in the Southwest.

      As an example, I know of farmers in AZ who pay less than 1 cent per kwh (at least they still were within the last decade, the first one I looked at just now is still under 3 cents) to pump groundwater by virtue of controlling the boards of local electrical districts which set rates so as to subsidize water pumping while being entitled to Hoover power.  This provides limited incentive to minimize water usage.

      Iron sharpens Iron. Normal is a dryer setting. STOP illegal immigration NOW! -- Make it LEGAL. If Corporations are People--Let's draft them.

      by benamery21 on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 01:00:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  um, earth to nasa, it's outer space (0+ / 0-)

    there's supposed to be no water there.

  •  I look forward to reading the study (0+ / 0-)

    This kind of data is invaluable to the policy discussion.

    I expect that in addition to the basin it covers areas outside the actual basin, in areas of water demand fed by the basin (like SoCal), which also have other water supply.  51maf of overdraft would be about 22% of average mainstem Colorado water supply + overdraft for the period.  Given that not all groundwater pumped is overdraft, and not all water supply in the basin is mainstem water, this implies overdraft has been an even smaller part of water supply.  In fact, over this period, California alone let more municipal effluent flow to the ocean than the total overdraft.  Given that most mainstem Colorado water goes to grow hay and pasture, simply retrofitting old irrigation systems would save more water than this overdraft.  This could be done far more cheaply than increasing supply.

    Iron sharpens Iron. Normal is a dryer setting. STOP illegal immigration NOW! -- Make it LEGAL. If Corporations are People--Let's draft them.

    by benamery21 on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 12:43:34 AM PDT

  •  Ain't that the durndest thing (0+ / 0-)

    A tribe of Native Americans not giving a crap about what some white colonists who decided to plant their houses and golf courses in a desert think about their use of their water rights.

    Sure, they're selling it to other white folks to sell to other white folks on a wasteful product but taking advantage of the shortsightedness and economic idiocy of white people seems to power many of the Native American nations' economies.

    You think a slot machine is lucky? Go on, sit there all day and watch the shiny lights and press the blinking buttons.

    Gosh, the article even says that the amount they're using could be "enough water for about 400 typical homes in the Coachella Valley".

    400!

    Alternatively, the manager of the local water agency said "in 2012 [they] recorded a total of 32,000 acre-feet of groundwater pumped in its entire area, from Calimesa to Cabazon. Compared to that, the estimated 750 acre-feet of water drawn from Millard Canyon represents roughly 2 percent. A single golf course can use more water.

    "It's literally peanuts. It's a drop in the ocean," Davis said. "You're talking about such a small amount of water that it's kind of ridiculous to fight over that."

    And the operation is even partly run on wind power.

  •  Not just Nestle. Pretty much every grower of (0+ / 0-)

    anything in California.

    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

    by dinotrac on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 03:42:15 AM PDT

  •  We have anything but a sustainable civilization (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mithra666

    Yet one more sustainability problem that we haven't even begun to solve. It's all part of the same problem. We are clearly on our way to extinction if we don't wake up suddenly and realize that we humans must design a civilization that addresses all of these issues. This is far bigger than any catastrophe that humans have ever experienced.

    We have always assumed that if a resource is there, then we are free to take it with no consequences. The new paradigm is that we can assume no resource surplus, that the planet needs its resources to be stable. Any permanently sequestered resource must stay that way, that includes underground aquifers, fossilized carbon and radioactive ore. When we plan for a resource, such as water, we have to plan on both a closed system and insertion into a natural system that does no net harm.

    The first step is to make the mental leap to take responsibility for our presence on the planet. The next step is going to be wholesale redesign of our habitat on the planet. Every human being on the planet will have to take part in this transformation. I'm not hopeful, but feel that everyone has the responsibility to advocate for sustainability.

  •  The good news is that when we decide to stop wa... (0+ / 0-)

    The good news is that when we decide to stop waging war over one dwindling resource, oil, we'll still have another one to fight over

  •  Recycle (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Brian1066

    Should be universal, rather than a rare noteworthy event.

    Wichita Falls could soon become the first in the country where half of the drinking water comes directly from wastewater.
    “The vast majority of water that enters a wastewater plant did not come from a toilet.  It comes from sinks, and bathtubs and washing machines and dishwashers,” he said. Nix said less than 20 percent of wastewater comes from toilets.

    Currently, wastewater here is treated and then emptied into the nearby Big Wichita River, where a natural cleansing process takes place. The water flows downstream to Lake Texoma, a big reservoir, where other cities treat it again before drinking it.

    http://stateimpact.npr.org/...

    Water situation there is so serious that there is a section on their paper's website just for that topic - Sports, Entertainment, Crime and

    LIFELINE: FULL DROUGHT COVERAGE
    http://www.timesrecordnews.com/

    “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

    by Catte Nappe on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 09:09:20 AM PDT

  •  Welcome To Ecowars ... (0+ / 0-)

    Guess that is Slowly sinking in that in the very near future if the current course of the country is not changed that we will out of necessity have to engage in a Ecological War for our very survival.

    Even Darpa's own Global crisis management experts said that  the current Mega Corporation economic model isn't sustainable two years ago.

    That would explain all the obsessive investment in non-renewable energy resources.

    The 1% are fully aware of this possible mass human die off and are engaging  in a  " Less of you , More for Us". approach.

    Think about it ... mass fracking that takes a millions of gallons of water per well a year in areas that have no water to spare. Off shore Drilling of our very vulnerable Atlantic coast just approved in spite of reports showing that wind and ocean wave and currents could easily supply the countries long term power needs ??? Is that crazy or what? Or.... Are they crazy like a fox ?

    The recent events could be viewed as the 1% strategically positioning themselves to come out of whatever happens still on top  

    They could be digging in to weather the Storm of their own making...

    This to could explain why assorted government Agencies are stocking up on munitions that normally have no interest is such things .like the Post office and Forestry service making large munitions buys. That points to getting prepared for a massive social upheaval of some type. The first step in any natural or man made Catastrophic event would be to protect government intra-structure to maintain order...

     This is all speculation as to the meaning of unrelated   events that, logistically make no sense, which are happening in todays world.    

  •  Too many people (0+ / 0-)

    Once again, more evidence that we need to reduce human population to a sustainable level worldwide. When will people wake up and accept that fact? And, it wouldn't take any pain, simply not procreating, not creating people who already do not exist. Thinking that we can solve our problems, including this one, through technology is pure delusion.

  •  DROUGHT in the SOUTHWEST (0+ / 0-)

    Dig a Canal, Probably from the Gulf of California into Death Valley.  Death Valley would then become "Death Valley Sea".  A sea level canal would make the body of water in Death Valley like the Mediterranian Sea and NOT like the great salt lake.  Evaporation (death valley is sunny with high temperatures) would drop as rain/snow in the eastern rockies which would then flow into the Colorado River Basin.  Resort land could be sold around Death Valley Sea to pay for the project.  Even solar powered desalinization could work in this hot sunny area.

  •  This is terrible (0+ / 0-)

    We can't control what the tribes do with their land. But we can insist through legislation that water not be sourced from dessert or drought prone areas.

  •  75% loss from groundwater (0+ / 0-)

    Fracking consumes an amazing amount of water, too. And it's not reusable for human consumption or agriculture either. Plus, there's the possibility that when they fracture layers of rock so deep, they are also opening up channels for groundwater to drain away.

  •  I saw this story on yahoo... (0+ / 0-)

    ...and the comments were exactly what I expected.

    "This is all a hoax!"

    What is it about people on the right that they refuse to look at what's happening?

  •  Desalination does use lots of energy (0+ / 0-)

    And the waste of water in the city of LA is mind boggling.
    Every day it runs in the streets everywhere.

  •  Ships use desalination...and in troubled areas too (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Odysseus

    "Desalination is becoming more efficient and less expensive. And producing large quantities of potable water — and the power to produce that freshwater — at sea is becoming increasingly environmentally friendly. For example, ships can tap a variety of alternative energies that are low-carbon emission, “green” technologies. Generating freshwater and power in coastal areas may also free up resources for inland use as well.

    "Mobile shipboard desalination may also make the world a safer place. As the human population continues to rapidly expand, some researchers predict that future wars and human conflict will increasingly arise because of diminishing natural resources. An increased availability of water could act as a politically stabilizing force in the world, reducing conflicts over competition for resources. Shipboard mobile desalination is an idea whose time has come, and is about to make port."

    http://www.earthmagazine.org/...

    This is just one article on line.  Google "desalination on ships"... Lots more information

  •  If you think Wars for Oil (3+ / 0-)

    are bad, wait until the Wars for Water begin. While it would be difficult to live without oil, without water we die.

    "All that is necessary for the triumph of Evil is that good men do nothing." --Edmund Burke

    by Phosbrite on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 11:19:56 AM PDT

  •  Private profits at public expense. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fitonkpo

    "Nestle Corporation is still draining western aquifers for profit"    Odds are, Nestle is getting the war at far below market rates.

  •  Las Vegas could dry up and blow away. (0+ / 0-)

    We have a water bottling plant here in Sacramento that uses millions of gallons a year. Was it 3 mil? It could be Nestle, too. I don't recall but we citizens have to scale back 20% or be fined. They should too. It is easy for us. I installed drips, front and back, a few years ago. Plus, I was in another drought and the old hippie in me WILL NOT LET ME WASTE WATER!

    Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.---George Orwell

    by okpkpkp on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 06:33:03 PM PDT

  •  You know what this means . . . (0+ / 0-)

    Time to start fracking!! Yay!

    If the theories of Karl Marx have been so completely disproved, why are people still arguing with them?

    by crankycurmudgeon on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 07:20:08 PM PDT

  •  ...I live here in NorCal......it' fucking... (0+ / 0-)

    ...dire here, extremely serious might be a better way to put it. I'm not kidding...

    Ignorance is bliss only for the ignorant. The rest of us must suffer the consequences. -7.38; -3.44

    by paradise50 on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 08:11:07 PM PDT

  •  Here on the West Coast we have the (0+ / 0-)

    magnificant Pacific Ocean.  It's true, desalinization is not only expensive, but must use huge amounts of energy.  

    We are at a crossroads in the realization of global warming and climate change and must as a nation stop polarizing and start building an America that can survive the future.

    We have thousands of experts in the field.  The Congress has to stop partisanship in all things and get to work allocating monies to come up with a cost effective way to deal with either desalinization as we know it with modifications, or come up with an entirely new concept.

    It can be done.  It needs support from the politicians, it needs sacrifice and support from the populace to conserve as it gets underway, and perhaps become a way of life, and it needs to work to draft legislation to fund the projects.

    Too long has Congress voted time to (54) repeal Obamacare, too long to  spend their time with non-scandals, as if it were the most important thing for the world and our country.

    Congress - get to work on the real business of the people, this country, and the planet.

  •  Primary cause = too many people (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fitonkpo

    tapping out the limited resources of our planet.  We MUST control our numbers, our pollution, our greed - or we will decimate life on earth.

    Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love. - Einstein

    by moose67 on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 09:09:12 PM PDT

  •  From the Sacto Bee. (0+ / 0-)

    Just look at Huntington Beach. The proposed plant will produce 50 million gallons of drinking water every day, more than 3,000 construction jobs and $2 million annually in tax revenue to the City. If we stay the current course and continue to overdraw groundwater and import water, we will continue to lose billions in revenue and tens of thousands of jobs. The Coastal Commission should immediately approve the Huntington Beach desal project.

    Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/...

    The process started in 2005, and still no Costal Commission approval. Read all about it here  http://www.water-technology.net/...

    and here http://www.huntingtonbeachca.gov/...

    •  Desal is a boondoggle. (0+ / 0-)

      There's 5maf per year of effluent freshwater in CA to recycle first.  Demand efficiency is also cheaper, and uses much less energy.  Incidentally, Huntington Beach is a spectacularly bad place to build a large electrical load, now that San Onofre is gone.

      Iron sharpens Iron. Normal is a dryer setting. STOP illegal immigration NOW! -- Make it LEGAL. If Corporations are People--Let's draft them.

      by benamery21 on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 02:47:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Huntington Beach NEVER used San Onofre ... (0+ / 0-)

        generated electricity. Why should they? AES has a clean Steam Plant in Huntington Beach. http://www.aescalifornia.com/...

        BTW the AES facilities are next-door to the proposed Desalination plant.

        •  Doh (0+ / 0-)

          You are mostly wrong, power engineer here, Huntington Beach is connected to the grid fed by San Onofre and there is a local grid generation deficit causing transmission congestion in the absence of that base generation.  Among the mitigation measures for that deficit was the short-term return to service of retired generation at Huntington Beach.  The retired units were later converted to synchronous condensers to help support transmission voltage to allow more power import to Orange and San Diego counties.

          http://www.scpr.org/...

          http://www.siemens.com/...

          http://www.powermag.com/...

          The fact that additional grid support is needed in this location is what makes it a lousy place to put significant load.

          Iron sharpens Iron. Normal is a dryer setting. STOP illegal immigration NOW! -- Make it LEGAL. If Corporations are People--Let's draft them.

          by benamery21 on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 09:02:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  How dare the Desalinization Plant ... (0+ / 0-)

        create high paying jobs and generate millions of dollars of tax revenue?

        •  You mean waste public monies and fossil energy (0+ / 0-)

          as well as disturb the marine environment and destabilize the transmission grid instead of utilizing cheaper more environmentally friendly sources of water for the region?

          Iron sharpens Iron. Normal is a dryer setting. STOP illegal immigration NOW! -- Make it LEGAL. If Corporations are People--Let's draft them.

          by benamery21 on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 09:04:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Note I am exaggerating (0+ / 0-)

            The proposed plant is so small that it wouldn't make much of a dent in SoCal water needs, or transmission grid stability.

            Iron sharpens Iron. Normal is a dryer setting. STOP illegal immigration NOW! -- Make it LEGAL. If Corporations are People--Let's draft them.

            by benamery21 on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 09:09:21 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Both AES and Poseidon Water are for profit ... (0+ / 0-)

            companies. Who finance their own debt.

            "The project will require an investment of $350m, which will be solely financed by Poseidon. It is expected to generate about 2,100 jobs during the construction phase, and 18 full-time jobs and 322 indirect jobs upon commissioning." http://www.water-technology.net/...

            AES is upgrading the Huntington Beach plant. "A significantly cleaner, modernized Huntington Beach power plant will also generate local economic benefits. It will create 3 million hours of construction-related work, generate more than $8.8 million annually in local expenditures (excluding local taxes and fees), and spur a nearly $1 billion private investment in California’s electric infrastructure, at no cost to taxpayers."

            How is creating jobs and increasing tax revenue "waste(ing) public monies?"

            BTW an 8% increase in water is better than nothing.

            •  Here's the link to the above AES quote. (0+ / 0-)

              http://www.aescalifornia.com/...
              Sorry if I inconvenienced anyone by not putting it in the original post.

            •  Who do they sell the water to? (0+ / 0-)

              Public agencies, which spend public dollars.  The private financing is just a way of sucking a little more gravy off the public teat.  Compare water cost and supply amount to the alternatives.  This is a boondoggle.

              The AES replacement (which I support) of the two remaining Huntington Beach units, of the 5 they bought from SCE,*  is not a capacity increase.** Until 2002 Huntington Beach was rated for 1103MW.  After construction of the new plant it will be rated for 939MW.  San Onofre 2 and 3 were rated for 2150MW.

              http://www.huntingtonbeachca.gov/...

              *after that regulated company was required to divest in-state generation to unregulated competitors, so as to increase profit margins (for generation) serving captive consumers

              **It is a capacity replacement and an efficiency and environmental upgrade over the old plant

              AES is proud to tout the location of this plant as critical to offsetting the loss of San Onofre
              http://www.renewaeshuntington.com/...

              Iron sharpens Iron. Normal is a dryer setting. STOP illegal immigration NOW! -- Make it LEGAL. If Corporations are People--Let's draft them.

              by benamery21 on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 10:56:33 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  56kaf is about 0.03% of CA's annual freshwater (0+ / 0-)

              Or about 1% of the effluent wastewater volume CA dumps in the ocean annually, which could be recycled more cheaply and at lower energy cost.  In fact that's begun in the beach cities of Orange County already, as noted upthread, but is at far less than 100% recycling today.

              It's worth noting that all of the once-thru seawater cooling on the California Coast is slated to go away for legal/environmental reasons, which is part of why AES is replacing the plant.  That plays hob with Poseidon's plan to piggyback on that cooling water intake and outfall to withdraw supply and dilute and dump brine.

              Iron sharpens Iron. Normal is a dryer setting. STOP illegal immigration NOW! -- Make it LEGAL. If Corporations are People--Let's draft them.

              by benamery21 on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 11:18:21 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It may only be about 0.03% for California, (0+ / 0-)

                but it is an 8% increase for Orange County. So OC can still produce all those wonderful Strawberries, that American's love so much, even during a draught.

                BTW it isn't an either/or situation. As benamery21 has stated above "... In fact that's begun in the beach cities of Orange County already, as noted upthread ..."

                •  How much has ag consumption grown recently in OC (0+ / 0-)

                  so as to require new supply?

                  P.S. I have lived in OC.  I was there for work twice last week.  My first cousin and her family of 5 live in Huntington Beach (walking distance from the pier).  My 'auntie' has lived in Westminster for over 30 years.

                  Iron sharpens Iron. Normal is a dryer setting. STOP illegal immigration NOW! -- Make it LEGAL. If Corporations are People--Let's draft them.

                  by benamery21 on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 07:03:40 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  Too many humans, not too little water (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OCLefty

    Does overpopulation ever occur to anybody, anywhere?

  •  Wrong photo (0+ / 0-)

    Even the LA Times photo editors are sometimes at a loss on how to show groundwater depletion, sot they just show empty or half-empty reservoirs for surface water. But groundwater, not surface water, is the biggest source of water in the West, and by far the biggest in California. We don't even know how much the true rate of groundwater removal. The GRACE satellite estimates put excess groundwater removal (above the recharge rate) at about 10 cubic kilometers a year for the San Joaquin Valley. This year, however, that may be low.
    With efforts to drill a couple thousand feet down now, we have  farmers bringing up briny, salt-laden water that then evaporates on the surface soil leaving a whitish, boron and selenium rich crust. It's farmer suicide, as they then have to move to more and more salt-resistant crops. Meanwhile, calls for land retirement, or at least resting land for a decade or so, rarely gets offered.  

    It is not easy to see what you are not looking for, or to know what it is you do not know.

    by kosta on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 06:53:32 AM PDT

  •  Those of us in the east (0+ / 0-)

    have no idea of the concept of "water rights". It doesn't exist in the law around here.

  •  Here is the paper: (0+ / 0-)

    Although on Wiley, it is free.

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/...

    "Groundwater Depletion During Drought Threatens Future Water Security of
    the Colorado River Basin"

    Here is a link to the lead author's linkedin profile:

    https://www.linkedin.com/...

    Iron sharpens Iron. Normal is a dryer setting. STOP illegal immigration NOW! -- Make it LEGAL. If Corporations are People--Let's draft them.

    by benamery21 on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 08:05:41 AM PDT

  •  This is not shocking at all (0+ / 0-)

    if you've been paying attention to California water usage in the past 100 years. When you drain an entire large lake and it's not recharged by underground or aboveground (which mostly stems from undergrounds water high upslope) water sources you have a big, big problem.

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